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June 2024

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Re: [nexa] Possibile accordo di maggioranza per chatcontrol: gli utenti che rifiutano la scansione non potranno condividere foto e link

by Stefano Borroni Barale

EDRI.org suggerisce di scrivere anche a questi indirizzi: Minister of Interior: matteo.piantedosi(a)interno.it Ministry of Interior: gabinetto.ministro(a)pec.interno.it Minister of Justice: NORDIO_C(a)CAMERA.IT Ministry of Justice: gabinetto.ministro(a)giustiziacert.it Se può essere utile... Stefano Inviato con l'email sicura Proton Mail. martedì 18 giugno 2024 18:30, Andrea Barontini via nexa <nexa(a)server-nexa.polito.it> ha scritto: > grazie della segnalazione! > > ...sembra fatta per poter sempre dire che l'istanza di turno non e' > stata presa in considerazione perche' inviata all'email sbagliata in > quanto non competente :D > > Del tipo: se non puoi impedire di contattarti, rendi improbabile trovate > il contatto giusto :D Il divo Giulio (magistralmente interpretato da

June 19, 2024

Re: [nexa] Noam Chomsky

by Daniela Tafani

Grazie, sì, l'ho letto anch'io, ma ho sospeso il giudizio, visto che ne avevano dato notizia Janis Varoufakis su New Statesman (che ha rimosso la pagina), Jakobin (che non l'ha rimossa, per il momento) e, in Italia, Rai News, Corriere, La Stampa, Avvenire e molti altri. Un saluto, Daniela ________________________________________ Da: Vera Tripodi <vera.tripodi(a)gmail.com> Inviato: martedì 18 giugno 2024 23:31 A: Daniela Tafani Cc: Nexa Oggetto: Re: [nexa] Noam Chomsky Pare non sia vero: https://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2024/06/18/news/la_fake_news_sulla_morte_… Saluti, Vera Il Mar 18 Giu 2024, 22:46 Daniela Tafani <daniela.tafani(a)unipi.it<mailto:daniela.tafani@unipi.it>> ha scritto: In memoria di Noam Chomsky, una sua intervista su IA, tecnica e scienza. Noam Chomsky Speaks on What ChatGPT Is Really Good For Noam Chomsky Interviewed by C.J. Polychroniou May 3, 2023 Artificial intelligence (AI) is sweeping the world. It is transforming every walk of life and raising in the process major ethical concerns for society and the future of humanity. ChatGPT, which is dominating social media, is an AI-powered chatbot developed by OpenAI. It is a subset of machine learning and relies on what is called Large Language Models that can generate human-like responses. The potential application for such technology is indeed enormous, which is why there are already calls to regulate AI like ChatGPT. Can AI outsmart humans? Does it pose public threats? Indeed, can AI become an existential threat? The world’s preeminent linguist Noam Chomsky, and one of the most esteemed public intellectuals of all time, whose intellectual stature has been compared to that of Galileo, Newton, and Descartes, tackles these nagging questions in the interview that follows. C. J. Polychroniou: As a scientific discipline, artificial intelligence (AI) dates back to the 1950s, but over the last couple of decades it has been making inroads into all sort of fields, including banking, insurance, auto manufacturing, music, and defense. In fact, the use of AI techniques has been shown in some instance to surpass human capabilities, such as in a game of chess. Are machines likely to become smarter than humans? Noam Chomsky: Just to clarify terminology, the term “machine” here means program, basically a theory written in a notation that can be executed by a computer–and an unusual kind of theory in interesting ways that we can put aside here. We can make a rough distinction between pure engineering and science. There is no sharp boundary, but it’s a useful first approximation. Pure engineering seeks to produce a product that may be of some use. Science seeks understanding. If the topic is human intelligence, or cognitive capacities of other organisms, science seeks understanding of these biological systems. As I understand them, the founders of AI–Alan Turing, Herbert Simon, Marvin Minsky, and others–regarded it as science, part of the then-emerging cognitive sciences, making use of new technologies and discoveries in the mathematical theory of computation to advance understanding. Over the years those concerns have faded and have largely been displaced by an engineering orientation. The earlier concerns are now commonly dismissed, sometimes condescendingly, as GOFAI–good old-fashioned AI. Continuing with the question, is it likely that programs will be devised that surpass human capabilities? We have to be careful about the word “capabilities,” for reasons to which I’ll return. But if we take the term to refer to human performance, then the answer is: definitely yes. In fact, they have long existed: the calculator in a laptop, for example. It can far exceed what humans can do, if only because of lack of time and memory. For closed systems like chess, it was well understood in the ‘50s that sooner or later, with the advance of massive computing capacities and a long period of preparation, a program could be devised to defeat a grandmaster who is playing with a bound on memory and time. The achievement years later was pretty much PR for IBM. Many biological organisms surpass human cognitive capacities in much deeper ways. The desert ants in my backyard have minuscule brains, but far exceed human navigational capacities, in principle, not just performance. There is no Great Chain of Being with humans at the top. The products of AI engineering are being used in many fields, for better or for worse. Even simple and familiar ones can be quite useful: in the language area, programs like autofill, live transcription, google translate, among others. With vastly greater computing power and more sophisticated programming, there should be other useful applications, in the sciences as well. There already have been some: Assisting in the study of protein folding is one recent case where massive and rapid search technology has helped scientists to deal with a critical and recalcitrant problem. Engineering projects can be useful, or harmful. Both questions arise in the case of engineering AI. Current work with Large Language Models (LLMs), including chatbots, provides tools for disinformation, defamation, and misleading the uninformed. The threats are enhanced when they are combined with artificial images and replication of voice. With different concerns in mind, tens of thousands of AI researchers have recently called for a moratorium on development because of potential dangers they perceive. As always, possible benefits of technology have to be weighed against potential costs. Quite different questions arise when we turn to AI and science. Here caution is necessary because of exorbitant and reckless claims, often amplified in the media. To clarify the issues, let’s consider cases, some hypothetical, some real. I mentioned insect navigation, which is an astonishing achievement. Insect scientists have made much progress in studying how it is achieved, though the neurophysiology, a very difficult matter, remains elusive, along with evolution of the systems. The same is true of the amazing feats of birds and sea turtles that travel thousands of miles and unerringly return to the place of origin. Suppose Tom Jones, a proponent of engineering AI, comes along and says: “Your work has all been refuted. The problem is solved. Commercial airline pilots achieve the same or even better results all the time.” If even bothering to respond, we’d laugh. Take the case of the seafaring exploits of Polynesians, still alive among Indigenous tribes, using stars, wind, currents to land their canoes at a designated spot hundreds of miles away. This too has been the topic of much research to find out how they do it. Tom Jones has the answer: “Stop wasting your time; naval vessels do it all the time.” Same response. Let’s now turn to a real case, language acquisition. It’s been the topic of extensive and highly illuminating research in recent years, showing that infants have very rich knowledge of the ambient language (or languages), far beyond what they exhibit in performance. It is achieved with little evidence, and in some crucial cases none at all. At best, as careful statistical studies have shown, available data are sparse, particularly when rank-frequency (“Zipf’s law”) is taken into account. Enter Tom Jones: “You’ve been refuted. Paying no attention to your discoveries, LLMs that scan astronomical amounts of data can find statistical regularities that make it possible to simulate the data on which they are trained, producing something that looks pretty much like normal human behavior. Chatbots.” This case differs from the others. First, it is real. Second, people don’t laugh; in fact, many are awed. Third, unlike the hypothetical cases, the actual results are far from what’s claimed. These considerations bring up a minor problem with the current LLM enthusiasm: its total absurdity, as in the hypothetical cases where we recognize it at once. But there are much more serious problems than absurdity. One is that the LLM systems are designed in such a way that they cannot tell us anything about language, learning, or other aspects of cognition, a matter of principle, irremediable. Double the terabytes of data scanned, add another trillion parameters, use even more of California’s energy, and the simulation of behavior will improve, while revealing more clearly the failure in principle of the approach to yield any understanding. The reason is elementary: The systems work just as well with impossible languages that infants cannot acquire as with those they acquire quickly and virtually reflexively. It’s as if a biologist were to say: “I have a great new theory of organisms. It lists many that exist and many that can’t possibly exist, and I can tell you nothing about the distinction.” Again, we’d laugh. Or should. Not Tom Jones–now referring to actual cases. Persisting in his radical departure from science, Tom Jones responds: “How do you know any of this until you’ve investigated all languages?” At this point the abandonment of normal science becomes even clearer. By parity of argument, we can throw out genetics and molecular biology, the theory of evolution, and the rest of the biological sciences, which haven’t sampled more than a tiny fraction of organisms. And for good measure, we can cast out all of physics. Why believe in the laws of motion? How many objects have actually been observed in motion? There is, furthermore, the small matter of burden of proof. Those who propose a theory have the responsibility of showing that it makes some sense, in this case, showing that it fails for impossible languages. It is not the responsibility of others to refute the proposal, though in this case it seems easy enough to do so. Let’s shift attention to normal science, where matters become interesting. Even a single example of language acquisition can yield rich insight into the distinction between possible and impossible languages. The reasons are straightforward, and familiar. All growth and development, including what is called “learning,” is a process that begins with a state of the organism and transforms it step-by-step to later stages. Acquisition of language is such a process. The initial state is the biological endowment of the faculty of language, which obviously exists, even if it is, as some believe, a particular combination of other capacities. That’s highly unlikely for reasons long understood, but it’s not relevant to our concerns here, so we can put it aside. Plainly there is a biological endowment for the human faculty of language. The merest truism. Transition proceeds to a relatively stable state, changed only superficially beyond: knowledge of the language. External data trigger and partially shape the process. Studying the state attained (knowledge of the language) and the external data, we can draw far-reaching conclusions about the initial state, the biological endowment that makes language acquisition possible. The conclusions about the initial state impose a distinction between possible and impossible languages. The distinction holds for all those who share the initial state–all humans, as far as is known; there seems to be no difference in capacity to acquire language among existing human groups. All of this is normal science, and it has achieved many results. Experiment has shown that the stable state is substantially obtained very early, by three to four years of age. It’s also well-established that the faculty of language has basic properties specific to humans, hence that it is a true species property: common to human groups and in fundamental ways a unique human attribute. A lot is left out in this schematic account, notably the role of natural law in growth and development: in the case of a computational system like language, principles of computational efficiency. But this is the essence of the matter. Again, normal science. It is important to be clear about Aristotle’s distinction between possession of knowledge and use of knowledge (in contemporary terminology, competence and performance). In the language case, the stable state obtained is possession of knowledge, coded in the brain. The internal system determines an unbounded array of structured expressions, each of which we can regard as formulating a thought, each externalizable in some sensorimotor system, usually sound though it could be sign or even (with difficulty) touch. The internally coded system is accessed in use of knowledge (performance). Performance includes the internal use of language in thought: reflection, planning, recollection, and a great deal more. Statistically speaking that is by far the overwhelming use of language. It is inaccessible to introspection, though we can learn a lot about it by the normal methods of science, from “outside,” metaphorically speaking. What is called “inner speech” is, in fact, fragments of externalized language with the articulatory apparatus muted. It is only a remote reflection of the internal use of language, important matters I cannot pursue here. Other forms of use of language are perception (parsing) and production, the latter crucially involving properties that remain as mysterious to us today as when they were regarded with awe and amazement by Galileo and his contemporaries at the dawn of modern science. The principal goal of science is to discover the internal system, both in its initial state in the human faculty of language and in the particular forms it assumes in acquisition. To the extent that this internal system is understood, we can proceed to investigate how it enters into performance, interacting with many other factors that enter into use of language. Data of performance provide evidence about the nature of the internal system, particularly so when they are refined by experiment, as in standard field work. But even the most massive collection of data is necessarily misleading in crucial ways. It keeps to what is normally produced, not the knowledge of the language coded in the brain, the primary object under investigation for those who want to understand the nature of language and its use. That internal object determines infinitely many possibilities of a kind that will not be used in normal behavior because of factors irrelevant to language, like short-term memory constraints, topics studied 60 years ago. Observed data will also include much that lies outside the system coded in the brain, often conscious use of language in ways that violate the rules for rhetorical purposes. These are truisms known to all field workers, who rely on elicitation techniques with informants, basically experiments, to yield a refined corpus that excludes irrelevant restrictions and deviant expressions. The same is true when linguists use themselves as informants, a perfectly sensible and normal procedure, common in the history of psychology up to the present. Proceeding further with normal science, we find that the internal processes and elements of the language cannot be detected by inspection of observed phenomena. Often these elements do not even appear in speech (or writing), though their effects, often subtle, can be detected. That is yet another reason why restriction to observed phenomena, as in LLM approaches, sharply limits understanding of the internal processes that are the core objects of inquiry into the nature of language, its acquisition and use. But that is not relevant if concern for science and understanding have been abandoned in favor of other goals. More generally in the sciences, for millennia, conclusions have been reached by experiments–often thought experiments–each a radical abstraction from phenomena. Experiments are theory-driven, seeking to discard the innumerable irrelevant factors that enter into observed phenomena–like linguistic performance. All of this is so elementary that it’s rarely even discussed. And familiar. As noted, the basic distinction goes back to Aristotle’s distinction between possession of knowledge and use of knowledge. The former is the central object of study. Secondary (and quite serious) studies investigate how the internally stored system of knowledge is used in performance, along with the many non-linguistic factors than enter into what is directly observed. We might also recall an observation of evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky, famous primarily for his work with Drosophila: Each species is unique, and humans are the uniquest of all. If we are interested in understanding what kind of creatures we are–following the injunction of the Delphic Oracle 2,500 years ago–we will be primarily concerned with what makes humans the uniquest of all, primarily language and thought, closely intertwined, as recognized in a rich tradition going back to classical Greece and India. Most behavior is fairly routine, hence to some extent predictable. What provides real insight into what makes us unique is what is not routine, which we do find, sometimes by experiment, sometimes by observation, from normal children to great artists and scientists. One final comment in this connection. Society has been plagued for a century by massive corporate campaigns to encourage disdain for science, topics well studied by Naomi Oreskes among others. It began with corporations whose products are murderous: lead, tobacco, asbestos, later fossil fuels. Their motives are understandable. The goal of a business in a capitalist society is profit, not human welfare. That’s an institutional fact: Don’t play the game and you’re out, replaced by someone who will. The corporate PR departments recognized early on that it would be a mistake to deny the mounting scientific evidence of the lethal effects of their products. That would be easily refuted. Better to sow doubt, encourage uncertainty, contempt for these pointy-headed suits who have never painted a house but come down from Washington to tell me not to use lead paint, destroying my business (a real case, easily multiplied). That has worked all too well. Right now it is leading us on a path to destruction of organized human life on earth. In intellectual circles, similar effects have been produced by the postmodern critique of science, dismantled by Jean Bricmont and Alan Sokal, but still much alive in some circles. It may be unkind to suggest the question, but it is, I think, fair to ask whether the Tom Joneses and those who uncritically repeat and even amplify their careless proclamations are contributing to the same baleful tendencies. CJP: ChatGPT is a natural-language-driven chatbot that uses artificial intelligence to allow human-like conversations. In a recent article in The New York Times, in conjunction with two other authors, you shut down the new chatbots as a hype because they simply cannot match the linguistic competence of humans. Isn’t it however possible that future innovations in AI can produce engineering projects that will match and perhaps even surpass human capabilities? NC: Credit for the article should be given to the actual author, Jeffrey Watumull, a fine mathematician-linguist-philosopher. The two listed co-authors were consultants, who agree with the article but did not write it. It’s true that chatbots cannot in principle match the linguistic competence of humans, for the reasons repeated above. Their basic design prevents them from reaching the minimal condition of adequacy for a theory of human language: distinguishing possible from impossible languages. Since that is a property of the design, it cannot be overcome by future innovations in this kind of AI. However, it is quite possible that future engineering projects will match and even surpass human capabilities, if we mean human capacity to act, performance. As mentioned above, some have long done so: automatic calculators for example. More interestingly, as mentioned, insects with minuscule brains surpass human capacities understood as competence. CJP: In the aforementioned article, it was also observed that today’s AI projects do not possess a human moral faculty. Does this obvious fact make AI robots less of a threat to the human race? I reckon the argument can be that it makes them perhaps even more so. NC: It is indeed an obvious fact, understanding “moral faculty” broadly. Unless carefully controlled, AI engineering can pose severe threats. Suppose, for example, that care of patients was automated. The inevitable errors that would be overcome by human judgment could produce a horror story. Or suppose that humans were removed from evaluation of the threats determined by automated missile-defense systems. As a shocking historical record informs us, that would be the end of human civilization. CJP: Regulators and law enforcement agencies in Europe are raising concerns about the spread of ChatGPT while a recently submitted piece of European Union legislation is trying to deal with AI by classifying such tools according to their perceived level of risk. Do you agree with those who are concerned that ChatGPT poses a serious public threat? Moreover, do you really think that the further development of AI tools can be halted until safeguards can be introduced? NC: I can easily sympathize with efforts to try to control the threats posed by advanced technology, including this case. I am, however, skeptical about the possibility of doing so. I suspect that the genie is out of the bottle. Malicious actors–institutional or individual–can probably find ways to evade safeguards. Such suspicions are of course no reason not to try, and to exercise vigilance. https://chomsky.info/20230503-2/

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] Noam Chomsky

by Vera Tripodi

Pare non sia vero: https://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2024/06/18/news/la_fake_news_sulla_morte_… Saluti, Vera Il Mar 18 Giu 2024, 22:46 Daniela Tafani <daniela.tafani(a)unipi.it> ha scritto: > In memoria di Noam Chomsky, una sua intervista su IA, tecnica e scienza. > > Noam Chomsky Speaks on What ChatGPT Is Really Good For > Noam Chomsky Interviewed by C.J. Polychroniou > May 3, 2023 > > Artificial intelligence (AI) is sweeping the world. It is transforming > every walk of life and raising in the process major ethical concerns for > society and the future of humanity. ChatGPT, which is dominating social > media, is an AI-powered chatbot developed by OpenAI. It is a subset of > machine learning and relies on what is called Large Language Models that > can generate human-like responses. The potential application for such > technology is indeed enormous, which is why there are already calls to > regulate AI like ChatGPT. > > Can AI outsmart humans? Does it pose public threats? Indeed, can AI become > an existential threat? The world’s preeminent linguist Noam Chomsky, and > one of the most esteemed public intellectuals of all time, whose > intellectual stature has been compared to that of Galileo, Newton, and > Descartes, tackles these nagging questions in the interview that follows. > > C. J. Polychroniou: As a scientific discipline, artificial intelligence > (AI) dates back to the 1950s, but over the last couple of decades it has > been making inroads into all sort of fields, including banking, insurance, > auto manufacturing, music, and defense. In fact, the use of AI techniques > has been shown in some instance to surpass human capabilities, such as in a > game of chess. Are machines likely to become smarter than humans? > > Noam Chomsky: Just to clarify terminology, the term “machine” here means > program, basically a theory written in a notation that can be executed by a > computer–and an unusual kind of theory in interesting ways that we can put > aside here. > > We can make a rough distinction between pure engineering and science. > There is no sharp boundary, but it’s a useful first approximation. Pure > engineering seeks to produce a product that may be of some use. Science > seeks understanding. If the topic is human intelligence, or cognitive > capacities of other organisms, science seeks understanding of these > biological systems. > > As I understand them, the founders of AI–Alan Turing, Herbert Simon, > Marvin Minsky, and others–regarded it as science, part of the then-emerging > cognitive sciences, making use of new technologies and discoveries in the > mathematical theory of computation to advance understanding. Over the years > those concerns have faded and have largely been displaced by an engineering > orientation. The earlier concerns are now commonly dismissed, sometimes > condescendingly, as GOFAI–good old-fashioned AI. > > Continuing with the question, is it likely that programs will be devised > that surpass human capabilities? We have to be careful about the word > “capabilities,” for reasons to which I’ll return. But if we take the term > to refer to human performance, then the answer is: definitely yes. In fact, > they have long existed: the calculator in a laptop, for example. It can far > exceed what humans can do, if only because of lack of time and memory. For > closed systems like chess, it was well understood in the ‘50s that sooner > or later, with the advance of massive computing capacities and a long > period of preparation, a program could be devised to defeat a grandmaster > who is playing with a bound on memory and time. The achievement years later > was pretty much PR for IBM. Many biological organisms surpass human > cognitive capacities in much deeper ways. The desert ants in my backyard > have minuscule brains, but far exceed human navigational capacities, in > principle, not just performance. There is no Great Chain of Being with > humans at the top. > > The products of AI engineering are being used in many fields, for better > or for worse. Even simple and familiar ones can be quite useful: in the > language area, programs like autofill, live transcription, google > translate, among others. With vastly greater computing power and more > sophisticated programming, there should be other useful applications, in > the sciences as well. There already have been some: Assisting in the study > of protein folding is one recent case where massive and rapid search > technology has helped scientists to deal with a critical and recalcitrant > problem. > > Engineering projects can be useful, or harmful. Both questions arise in > the case of engineering AI. Current work with Large Language Models (LLMs), > including chatbots, provides tools for disinformation, defamation, and > misleading the uninformed. The threats are enhanced when they are combined > with artificial images and replication of voice. With different concerns in > mind, tens of thousands of AI researchers have recently called for a > moratorium on development because of potential dangers they perceive. > > As always, possible benefits of technology have to be weighed against > potential costs. > > Quite different questions arise when we turn to AI and science. Here > caution is necessary because of exorbitant and reckless claims, often > amplified in the media. To clarify the issues, let’s consider cases, some > hypothetical, some real. > > I mentioned insect navigation, which is an astonishing achievement. Insect > scientists have made much progress in studying how it is achieved, though > the neurophysiology, a very difficult matter, remains elusive, along with > evolution of the systems. The same is true of the amazing feats of birds > and sea turtles that travel thousands of miles and unerringly return to the > place of origin. > > Suppose Tom Jones, a proponent of engineering AI, comes along and says: > “Your work has all been refuted. The problem is solved. Commercial airline > pilots achieve the same or even better results all the time.” > > If even bothering to respond, we’d laugh. > > Take the case of the seafaring exploits of Polynesians, still alive among > Indigenous tribes, using stars, wind, currents to land their canoes at a > designated spot hundreds of miles away. This too has been the topic of much > research to find out how they do it. Tom Jones has the answer: “Stop > wasting your time; naval vessels do it all the time.” > > Same response. > > Let’s now turn to a real case, language acquisition. It’s been the topic > of extensive and highly illuminating research in recent years, showing that > infants have very rich knowledge of the ambient language (or languages), > far beyond what they exhibit in performance. It is achieved with little > evidence, and in some crucial cases none at all. At best, as careful > statistical studies have shown, available data are sparse, particularly > when rank-frequency (“Zipf’s law”) is taken into account. > > Enter Tom Jones: “You’ve been refuted. Paying no attention to your > discoveries, LLMs that scan astronomical amounts of data can find > statistical regularities that make it possible to simulate the data on > which they are trained, producing something that looks pretty much like > normal human behavior. Chatbots.” > > This case differs from the others. First, it is real. Second, people don’t > laugh; in fact, many are awed. Third, unlike the hypothetical cases, the > actual results are far from what’s claimed. > > These considerations bring up a minor problem with the current LLM > enthusiasm: its total absurdity, as in the hypothetical cases where we > recognize it at once. But there are much more serious problems than > absurdity. > > One is that the LLM systems are designed in such a way that they cannot > tell us anything about language, learning, or other aspects of cognition, a > matter of principle, irremediable. Double the terabytes of data scanned, > add another trillion parameters, use even more of California’s energy, and > the simulation of behavior will improve, while revealing more clearly the > failure in principle of the approach to yield any understanding. The reason > is elementary: The systems work just as well with impossible languages that > infants cannot acquire as with those they acquire quickly and virtually > reflexively. > > It’s as if a biologist were to say: “I have a great new theory of > organisms. It lists many that exist and many that can’t possibly exist, and > I can tell you nothing about the distinction.” > > Again, we’d laugh. Or should. > > Not Tom Jones–now referring to actual cases. Persisting in his radical > departure from science, Tom Jones responds: “How do you know any of this > until you’ve investigated all languages?” At this point the abandonment of > normal science becomes even clearer. By parity of argument, we can throw > out genetics and molecular biology, the theory of evolution, and the rest > of the biological sciences, which haven’t sampled more than a tiny fraction > of organisms. And for good measure, we can cast out all of physics. Why > believe in the laws of motion? How many objects have actually been observed > in motion? > > There is, furthermore, the small matter of burden of proof. Those who > propose a theory have the responsibility of showing that it makes some > sense, in this case, showing that it fails for impossible languages. It is > not the responsibility of others to refute the proposal, though in this > case it seems easy enough to do so. > > Let’s shift attention to normal science, where matters become interesting. > Even a single example of language acquisition can yield rich insight into > the distinction between possible and impossible languages. > > The reasons are straightforward, and familiar. All growth and development, > including what is called “learning,” is a process that begins with a state > of the organism and transforms it step-by-step to later stages. > > Acquisition of language is such a process. The initial state is the > biological endowment of the faculty of language, which obviously exists, > even if it is, as some believe, a particular combination of other > capacities. That’s highly unlikely for reasons long understood, but it’s > not relevant to our concerns here, so we can put it aside. Plainly there is > a biological endowment for the human faculty of language. The merest truism. > > Transition proceeds to a relatively stable state, changed only > superficially beyond: knowledge of the language. External data trigger and > partially shape the process. Studying the state attained (knowledge of the > language) and the external data, we can draw far-reaching conclusions about > the initial state, the biological endowment that makes language acquisition > possible. The conclusions about the initial state impose a distinction > between possible and impossible languages. The distinction holds for all > those who share the initial state–all humans, as far as is known; there > seems to be no difference in capacity to acquire language among existing > human groups. > > All of this is normal science, and it has achieved many results. > > Experiment has shown that the stable state is substantially obtained very > early, by three to four years of age. It’s also well-established that the > faculty of language has basic properties specific to humans, hence that it > is a true species property: common to human groups and in fundamental ways > a unique human attribute. > > A lot is left out in this schematic account, notably the role of natural > law in growth and development: in the case of a computational system like > language, principles of computational efficiency. But this is the essence > of the matter. Again, normal science. > > It is important to be clear about Aristotle’s distinction between > possession of knowledge and use of knowledge (in contemporary terminology, > competence and performance). In the language case, the stable state > obtained is possession of knowledge, coded in the brain. The internal > system determines an unbounded array of structured expressions, each of > which we can regard as formulating a thought, each externalizable in some > sensorimotor system, usually sound though it could be sign or even (with > difficulty) touch. > > The internally coded system is accessed in use of knowledge (performance). > Performance includes the internal use of language in thought: reflection, > planning, recollection, and a great deal more. Statistically speaking that > is by far the overwhelming use of language. It is inaccessible to > introspection, though we can learn a lot about it by the normal methods of > science, from “outside,” metaphorically speaking. What is called “inner > speech” is, in fact, fragments of externalized language with the > articulatory apparatus muted. It is only a remote reflection of the > internal use of language, important matters I cannot pursue here. > > Other forms of use of language are perception (parsing) and production, > the latter crucially involving properties that remain as mysterious to us > today as when they were regarded with awe and amazement by Galileo and his > contemporaries at the dawn of modern science. > > The principal goal of science is to discover the internal system, both in > its initial state in the human faculty of language and in the particular > forms it assumes in acquisition. To the extent that this internal system is > understood, we can proceed to investigate how it enters into performance, > interacting with many other factors that enter into use of language. > > Data of performance provide evidence about the nature of the internal > system, particularly so when they are refined by experiment, as in standard > field work. But even the most massive collection of data is necessarily > misleading in crucial ways. It keeps to what is normally produced, not the > knowledge of the language coded in the brain, the primary object under > investigation for those who want to understand the nature of language and > its use. That internal object determines infinitely many possibilities of a > kind that will not be used in normal behavior because of factors irrelevant > to language, like short-term memory constraints, topics studied 60 years > ago. Observed data will also include much that lies outside the system > coded in the brain, often conscious use of language in ways that violate > the rules for rhetorical purposes. These are truisms known to all field > workers, who rely on elicitation techniques with informants, basically > experiments, to yield a refined corpus that excludes irrelevant > restrictions and deviant expressions. The same is true when linguists use > themselves as informants, a perfectly sensible and normal procedure, common > in the history of psychology up to the present. > > Proceeding further with normal science, we find that the internal > processes and elements of the language cannot be detected by inspection of > observed phenomena. Often these elements do not even appear in speech (or > writing), though their effects, often subtle, can be detected. That is yet > another reason why restriction to observed phenomena, as in LLM approaches, > sharply limits understanding of the internal processes that are the core > objects of inquiry into the nature of language, its acquisition and use. > But that is not relevant if concern for science and understanding have been > abandoned in favor of other goals. > > More generally in the sciences, for millennia, conclusions have been > reached by experiments–often thought experiments–each a radical abstraction > from phenomena. Experiments are theory-driven, seeking to discard the > innumerable irrelevant factors that enter into observed phenomena–like > linguistic performance. All of this is so elementary that it’s rarely even > discussed. And familiar. As noted, the basic distinction goes back to > Aristotle’s distinction between possession of knowledge and use of > knowledge. The former is the central object of study. Secondary (and quite > serious) studies investigate how the internally stored system of knowledge > is used in performance, along with the many non-linguistic factors than > enter into what is directly observed. > > We might also recall an observation of evolutionary biologist Theodosius > Dobzhansky, famous primarily for his work with Drosophila: Each species is > unique, and humans are the uniquest of all. If we are interested in > understanding what kind of creatures we are–following the injunction of the > Delphic Oracle 2,500 years ago–we will be primarily concerned with what > makes humans the uniquest of all, primarily language and thought, closely > intertwined, as recognized in a rich tradition going back to classical > Greece and India. Most behavior is fairly routine, hence to some extent > predictable. What provides real insight into what makes us unique is what > is not routine, which we do find, sometimes by experiment, sometimes by > observation, from normal children to great artists and scientists. > > One final comment in this connection. Society has been plagued for a > century by massive corporate campaigns to encourage disdain for science, > topics well studied by Naomi Oreskes among others. It began with > corporations whose products are murderous: lead, tobacco, asbestos, later > fossil fuels. Their motives are understandable. The goal of a business in a > capitalist society is profit, not human welfare. That’s an institutional > fact: Don’t play the game and you’re out, replaced by someone who will. > > The corporate PR departments recognized early on that it would be a > mistake to deny the mounting scientific evidence of the lethal effects of > their products. That would be easily refuted. Better to sow doubt, > encourage uncertainty, contempt for these pointy-headed suits who have > never painted a house but come down from Washington to tell me not to use > lead paint, destroying my business (a real case, easily multiplied). That > has worked all too well. Right now it is leading us on a path to > destruction of organized human life on earth. > > In intellectual circles, similar effects have been produced by the > postmodern critique of science, dismantled by Jean Bricmont and Alan Sokal, > but still much alive in some circles. > > It may be unkind to suggest the question, but it is, I think, fair to ask > whether the Tom Joneses and those who uncritically repeat and even amplify > their careless proclamations are contributing to the same baleful > tendencies. > > CJP: ChatGPT is a natural-language-driven chatbot that uses artificial > intelligence to allow human-like conversations. In a recent article in The > New York Times, in conjunction with two other authors, you shut down the > new chatbots as a hype because they simply cannot match the linguistic > competence of humans. Isn’t it however possible that future innovations in > AI can produce engineering projects that will match and perhaps even > surpass human capabilities? > > NC: Credit for the article should be given to the actual author, Jeffrey > Watumull, a fine mathematician-linguist-philosopher. The two listed > co-authors were consultants, who agree with the article but did not write > it. > > It’s true that chatbots cannot in principle match the linguistic > competence of humans, for the reasons repeated above. Their basic design > prevents them from reaching the minimal condition of adequacy for a theory > of human language: distinguishing possible from impossible languages. Since > that is a property of the design, it cannot be overcome by future > innovations in this kind of AI. However, it is quite possible that future > engineering projects will match and even surpass human capabilities, if we > mean human capacity to act, performance. As mentioned above, some have long > done so: automatic calculators for example. More interestingly, as > mentioned, insects with minuscule brains surpass human capacities > understood as competence. > > CJP: In the aforementioned article, it was also observed that today’s AI > projects do not possess a human moral faculty. Does this obvious fact make > AI robots less of a threat to the human race? I reckon the argument can be > that it makes them perhaps even more so. > > NC: It is indeed an obvious fact, understanding “moral faculty” broadly. > Unless carefully controlled, AI engineering can pose severe threats. > Suppose, for example, that care of patients was automated. The inevitable > errors that would be overcome by human judgment could produce a horror > story. Or suppose that humans were removed from evaluation of the threats > determined by automated missile-defense systems. As a shocking historical > record informs us, that would be the end of human civilization. > > CJP: Regulators and law enforcement agencies in Europe are raising > concerns about the spread of ChatGPT while a recently submitted piece of > European Union legislation is trying to deal with AI by classifying such > tools according to their perceived level of risk. Do you agree with those > who are concerned that ChatGPT poses a serious public threat? Moreover, do > you really think that the further development of AI tools can be halted > until safeguards can be introduced? > > NC: I can easily sympathize with efforts to try to control the threats > posed by advanced technology, including this case. I am, however, skeptical > about the possibility of doing so. I suspect that the genie is out of the > bottle. Malicious actors–institutional or individual–can probably find ways > to evade safeguards. Such suspicions are of course no reason not to try, > and to exercise vigilance. > > https://chomsky.info/20230503-2/

June 18, 2024

Noam Chomsky

by Daniela Tafani

In memoria di Noam Chomsky, una sua intervista su IA, tecnica e scienza. Noam Chomsky Speaks on What ChatGPT Is Really Good For Noam Chomsky Interviewed by C.J. Polychroniou May 3, 2023 Artificial intelligence (AI) is sweeping the world. It is transforming every walk of life and raising in the process major ethical concerns for society and the future of humanity. ChatGPT, which is dominating social media, is an AI-powered chatbot developed by OpenAI. It is a subset of machine learning and relies on what is called Large Language Models that can generate human-like responses. The potential application for such technology is indeed enormous, which is why there are already calls to regulate AI like ChatGPT. Can AI outsmart humans? Does it pose public threats? Indeed, can AI become an existential threat? The world’s preeminent linguist Noam Chomsky, and one of the most esteemed public intellectuals of all time, whose intellectual stature has been compared to that of Galileo, Newton, and Descartes, tackles these nagging questions in the interview that follows. C. J. Polychroniou: As a scientific discipline, artificial intelligence (AI) dates back to the 1950s, but over the last couple of decades it has been making inroads into all sort of fields, including banking, insurance, auto manufacturing, music, and defense. In fact, the use of AI techniques has been shown in some instance to surpass human capabilities, such as in a game of chess. Are machines likely to become smarter than humans? Noam Chomsky: Just to clarify terminology, the term “machine” here means program, basically a theory written in a notation that can be executed by a computer–and an unusual kind of theory in interesting ways that we can put aside here. We can make a rough distinction between pure engineering and science. There is no sharp boundary, but it’s a useful first approximation. Pure engineering seeks to produce a product that may be of some use. Science seeks understanding. If the topic is human intelligence, or cognitive capacities of other organisms, science seeks understanding of these biological systems. As I understand them, the founders of AI–Alan Turing, Herbert Simon, Marvin Minsky, and others–regarded it as science, part of the then-emerging cognitive sciences, making use of new technologies and discoveries in the mathematical theory of computation to advance understanding. Over the years those concerns have faded and have largely been displaced by an engineering orientation. The earlier concerns are now commonly dismissed, sometimes condescendingly, as GOFAI–good old-fashioned AI. Continuing with the question, is it likely that programs will be devised that surpass human capabilities? We have to be careful about the word “capabilities,” for reasons to which I’ll return. But if we take the term to refer to human performance, then the answer is: definitely yes. In fact, they have long existed: the calculator in a laptop, for example. It can far exceed what humans can do, if only because of lack of time and memory. For closed systems like chess, it was well understood in the ‘50s that sooner or later, with the advance of massive computing capacities and a long period of preparation, a program could be devised to defeat a grandmaster who is playing with a bound on memory and time. The achievement years later was pretty much PR for IBM. Many biological organisms surpass human cognitive capacities in much deeper ways. The desert ants in my backyard have minuscule brains, but far exceed human navigational capacities, in principle, not just performance. There is no Great Chain of Being with humans at the top. The products of AI engineering are being used in many fields, for better or for worse. Even simple and familiar ones can be quite useful: in the language area, programs like autofill, live transcription, google translate, among others. With vastly greater computing power and more sophisticated programming, there should be other useful applications, in the sciences as well. There already have been some: Assisting in the study of protein folding is one recent case where massive and rapid search technology has helped scientists to deal with a critical and recalcitrant problem. Engineering projects can be useful, or harmful. Both questions arise in the case of engineering AI. Current work with Large Language Models (LLMs), including chatbots, provides tools for disinformation, defamation, and misleading the uninformed. The threats are enhanced when they are combined with artificial images and replication of voice. With different concerns in mind, tens of thousands of AI researchers have recently called for a moratorium on development because of potential dangers they perceive. As always, possible benefits of technology have to be weighed against potential costs. Quite different questions arise when we turn to AI and science. Here caution is necessary because of exorbitant and reckless claims, often amplified in the media. To clarify the issues, let’s consider cases, some hypothetical, some real. I mentioned insect navigation, which is an astonishing achievement. Insect scientists have made much progress in studying how it is achieved, though the neurophysiology, a very difficult matter, remains elusive, along with evolution of the systems. The same is true of the amazing feats of birds and sea turtles that travel thousands of miles and unerringly return to the place of origin. Suppose Tom Jones, a proponent of engineering AI, comes along and says: “Your work has all been refuted. The problem is solved. Commercial airline pilots achieve the same or even better results all the time.” If even bothering to respond, we’d laugh. Take the case of the seafaring exploits of Polynesians, still alive among Indigenous tribes, using stars, wind, currents to land their canoes at a designated spot hundreds of miles away. This too has been the topic of much research to find out how they do it. Tom Jones has the answer: “Stop wasting your time; naval vessels do it all the time.” Same response. Let’s now turn to a real case, language acquisition. It’s been the topic of extensive and highly illuminating research in recent years, showing that infants have very rich knowledge of the ambient language (or languages), far beyond what they exhibit in performance. It is achieved with little evidence, and in some crucial cases none at all. At best, as careful statistical studies have shown, available data are sparse, particularly when rank-frequency (“Zipf’s law”) is taken into account. Enter Tom Jones: “You’ve been refuted. Paying no attention to your discoveries, LLMs that scan astronomical amounts of data can find statistical regularities that make it possible to simulate the data on which they are trained, producing something that looks pretty much like normal human behavior. Chatbots.” This case differs from the others. First, it is real. Second, people don’t laugh; in fact, many are awed. Third, unlike the hypothetical cases, the actual results are far from what’s claimed. These considerations bring up a minor problem with the current LLM enthusiasm: its total absurdity, as in the hypothetical cases where we recognize it at once. But there are much more serious problems than absurdity. One is that the LLM systems are designed in such a way that they cannot tell us anything about language, learning, or other aspects of cognition, a matter of principle, irremediable. Double the terabytes of data scanned, add another trillion parameters, use even more of California’s energy, and the simulation of behavior will improve, while revealing more clearly the failure in principle of the approach to yield any understanding. The reason is elementary: The systems work just as well with impossible languages that infants cannot acquire as with those they acquire quickly and virtually reflexively. It’s as if a biologist were to say: “I have a great new theory of organisms. It lists many that exist and many that can’t possibly exist, and I can tell you nothing about the distinction.” Again, we’d laugh. Or should. Not Tom Jones–now referring to actual cases. Persisting in his radical departure from science, Tom Jones responds: “How do you know any of this until you’ve investigated all languages?” At this point the abandonment of normal science becomes even clearer. By parity of argument, we can throw out genetics and molecular biology, the theory of evolution, and the rest of the biological sciences, which haven’t sampled more than a tiny fraction of organisms. And for good measure, we can cast out all of physics. Why believe in the laws of motion? How many objects have actually been observed in motion? There is, furthermore, the small matter of burden of proof. Those who propose a theory have the responsibility of showing that it makes some sense, in this case, showing that it fails for impossible languages. It is not the responsibility of others to refute the proposal, though in this case it seems easy enough to do so. Let’s shift attention to normal science, where matters become interesting. Even a single example of language acquisition can yield rich insight into the distinction between possible and impossible languages. The reasons are straightforward, and familiar. All growth and development, including what is called “learning,” is a process that begins with a state of the organism and transforms it step-by-step to later stages. Acquisition of language is such a process. The initial state is the biological endowment of the faculty of language, which obviously exists, even if it is, as some believe, a particular combination of other capacities. That’s highly unlikely for reasons long understood, but it’s not relevant to our concerns here, so we can put it aside. Plainly there is a biological endowment for the human faculty of language. The merest truism. Transition proceeds to a relatively stable state, changed only superficially beyond: knowledge of the language. External data trigger and partially shape the process. Studying the state attained (knowledge of the language) and the external data, we can draw far-reaching conclusions about the initial state, the biological endowment that makes language acquisition possible. The conclusions about the initial state impose a distinction between possible and impossible languages. The distinction holds for all those who share the initial state–all humans, as far as is known; there seems to be no difference in capacity to acquire language among existing human groups. All of this is normal science, and it has achieved many results. Experiment has shown that the stable state is substantially obtained very early, by three to four years of age. It’s also well-established that the faculty of language has basic properties specific to humans, hence that it is a true species property: common to human groups and in fundamental ways a unique human attribute. A lot is left out in this schematic account, notably the role of natural law in growth and development: in the case of a computational system like language, principles of computational efficiency. But this is the essence of the matter. Again, normal science. It is important to be clear about Aristotle’s distinction between possession of knowledge and use of knowledge (in contemporary terminology, competence and performance). In the language case, the stable state obtained is possession of knowledge, coded in the brain. The internal system determines an unbounded array of structured expressions, each of which we can regard as formulating a thought, each externalizable in some sensorimotor system, usually sound though it could be sign or even (with difficulty) touch. The internally coded system is accessed in use of knowledge (performance). Performance includes the internal use of language in thought: reflection, planning, recollection, and a great deal more. Statistically speaking that is by far the overwhelming use of language. It is inaccessible to introspection, though we can learn a lot about it by the normal methods of science, from “outside,” metaphorically speaking. What is called “inner speech” is, in fact, fragments of externalized language with the articulatory apparatus muted. It is only a remote reflection of the internal use of language, important matters I cannot pursue here. Other forms of use of language are perception (parsing) and production, the latter crucially involving properties that remain as mysterious to us today as when they were regarded with awe and amazement by Galileo and his contemporaries at the dawn of modern science. The principal goal of science is to discover the internal system, both in its initial state in the human faculty of language and in the particular forms it assumes in acquisition. To the extent that this internal system is understood, we can proceed to investigate how it enters into performance, interacting with many other factors that enter into use of language. Data of performance provide evidence about the nature of the internal system, particularly so when they are refined by experiment, as in standard field work. But even the most massive collection of data is necessarily misleading in crucial ways. It keeps to what is normally produced, not the knowledge of the language coded in the brain, the primary object under investigation for those who want to understand the nature of language and its use. That internal object determines infinitely many possibilities of a kind that will not be used in normal behavior because of factors irrelevant to language, like short-term memory constraints, topics studied 60 years ago. Observed data will also include much that lies outside the system coded in the brain, often conscious use of language in ways that violate the rules for rhetorical purposes. These are truisms known to all field workers, who rely on elicitation techniques with informants, basically experiments, to yield a refined corpus that excludes irrelevant restrictions and deviant expressions. The same is true when linguists use themselves as informants, a perfectly sensible and normal procedure, common in the history of psychology up to the present. Proceeding further with normal science, we find that the internal processes and elements of the language cannot be detected by inspection of observed phenomena. Often these elements do not even appear in speech (or writing), though their effects, often subtle, can be detected. That is yet another reason why restriction to observed phenomena, as in LLM approaches, sharply limits understanding of the internal processes that are the core objects of inquiry into the nature of language, its acquisition and use. But that is not relevant if concern for science and understanding have been abandoned in favor of other goals. More generally in the sciences, for millennia, conclusions have been reached by experiments–often thought experiments–each a radical abstraction from phenomena. Experiments are theory-driven, seeking to discard the innumerable irrelevant factors that enter into observed phenomena–like linguistic performance. All of this is so elementary that it’s rarely even discussed. And familiar. As noted, the basic distinction goes back to Aristotle’s distinction between possession of knowledge and use of knowledge. The former is the central object of study. Secondary (and quite serious) studies investigate how the internally stored system of knowledge is used in performance, along with the many non-linguistic factors than enter into what is directly observed. We might also recall an observation of evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky, famous primarily for his work with Drosophila: Each species is unique, and humans are the uniquest of all. If we are interested in understanding what kind of creatures we are–following the injunction of the Delphic Oracle 2,500 years ago–we will be primarily concerned with what makes humans the uniquest of all, primarily language and thought, closely intertwined, as recognized in a rich tradition going back to classical Greece and India. Most behavior is fairly routine, hence to some extent predictable. What provides real insight into what makes us unique is what is not routine, which we do find, sometimes by experiment, sometimes by observation, from normal children to great artists and scientists. One final comment in this connection. Society has been plagued for a century by massive corporate campaigns to encourage disdain for science, topics well studied by Naomi Oreskes among others. It began with corporations whose products are murderous: lead, tobacco, asbestos, later fossil fuels. Their motives are understandable. The goal of a business in a capitalist society is profit, not human welfare. That’s an institutional fact: Don’t play the game and you’re out, replaced by someone who will. The corporate PR departments recognized early on that it would be a mistake to deny the mounting scientific evidence of the lethal effects of their products. That would be easily refuted. Better to sow doubt, encourage uncertainty, contempt for these pointy-headed suits who have never painted a house but come down from Washington to tell me not to use lead paint, destroying my business (a real case, easily multiplied). That has worked all too well. Right now it is leading us on a path to destruction of organized human life on earth. In intellectual circles, similar effects have been produced by the postmodern critique of science, dismantled by Jean Bricmont and Alan Sokal, but still much alive in some circles. It may be unkind to suggest the question, but it is, I think, fair to ask whether the Tom Joneses and those who uncritically repeat and even amplify their careless proclamations are contributing to the same baleful tendencies. CJP: ChatGPT is a natural-language-driven chatbot that uses artificial intelligence to allow human-like conversations. In a recent article in The New York Times, in conjunction with two other authors, you shut down the new chatbots as a hype because they simply cannot match the linguistic competence of humans. Isn’t it however possible that future innovations in AI can produce engineering projects that will match and perhaps even surpass human capabilities? NC: Credit for the article should be given to the actual author, Jeffrey Watumull, a fine mathematician-linguist-philosopher. The two listed co-authors were consultants, who agree with the article but did not write it. It’s true that chatbots cannot in principle match the linguistic competence of humans, for the reasons repeated above. Their basic design prevents them from reaching the minimal condition of adequacy for a theory of human language: distinguishing possible from impossible languages. Since that is a property of the design, it cannot be overcome by future innovations in this kind of AI. However, it is quite possible that future engineering projects will match and even surpass human capabilities, if we mean human capacity to act, performance. As mentioned above, some have long done so: automatic calculators for example. More interestingly, as mentioned, insects with minuscule brains surpass human capacities understood as competence. CJP: In the aforementioned article, it was also observed that today’s AI projects do not possess a human moral faculty. Does this obvious fact make AI robots less of a threat to the human race? I reckon the argument can be that it makes them perhaps even more so. NC: It is indeed an obvious fact, understanding “moral faculty” broadly. Unless carefully controlled, AI engineering can pose severe threats. Suppose, for example, that care of patients was automated. The inevitable errors that would be overcome by human judgment could produce a horror story. Or suppose that humans were removed from evaluation of the threats determined by automated missile-defense systems. As a shocking historical record informs us, that would be the end of human civilization. CJP: Regulators and law enforcement agencies in Europe are raising concerns about the spread of ChatGPT while a recently submitted piece of European Union legislation is trying to deal with AI by classifying such tools according to their perceived level of risk. Do you agree with those who are concerned that ChatGPT poses a serious public threat? Moreover, do you really think that the further development of AI tools can be halted until safeguards can be introduced? NC: I can easily sympathize with efforts to try to control the threats posed by advanced technology, including this case. I am, however, skeptical about the possibility of doing so. I suspect that the genie is out of the bottle. Malicious actors–institutional or individual–can probably find ways to evade safeguards. Such suspicions are of course no reason not to try, and to exercise vigilance. https://chomsky.info/20230503-2/

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] La sanità deve fare a meno dei dati personali

by 380°

380° <g380(a)biscuolo.net> writes: [...] > «Il Pensatoio: La sanità deve fare a meno dei dati personali.» > <https://bernieri.blogspot.com/2024/05/la-sanita-deve-fare-meno-dei-dati.html> e ora un paio di commenti di carattere... psico-sociologico [...] > Questi dati particolari, questi dati sensibili, ci rendono > particolarmente vulnerabili in modi che spesso non sappiamo prevedere e > che dipendono da chi li avrà a disposizione e dall'uso > malizioso/deteriore/deprecabile che saprà escogitare. è esattamente per questo che i dati sensibili, anche prima del GDPR, erano _oggetto_ di specifiche e stringenti norme che obbligano chiunque li tratti ad adottare adeguati mezzi per PROTEGGERLI è ovvio che _considerati i risultati_ tutta la baracca assomiglia sempre di più a un circo [...] > Quando i dati sensibili di Ingenuolo chi non è Ingenuolo alzi la mano, ma faccia attenzione perché rischia figuracce > [...] Una malattia invalidante, in molti Paesi, è discriminante per il > datore di lavoro. in Italia i datori di lavoro sono obbligati a nominare un medico del lavoro quando ci sono attività lavorative rischiose per la salute dei lavoratori poi credo che il livello di discriminazione - sul lavoro o in generale - per motivi di salute sia inversamente proporzionale al livello di civiltà > [...] Essere portatori di una patologia particolare può minare > autostima e produttività, finanche diventare motivo di bullismo o > mobbing. quindi chi è senza compassione: i criminali informatici o il resto della società? > Ingenuolo dovrà pagare per non far arrivare alle sue assicurazioni la > documentazione che annullerà ogni copertura. vorrei almeno uno, solo uno, ne basta uno, caso del genere avvenuto _nel_mondo_: esiste? Esiste un caso nel quale una assicurazione, anche in tribunale, è arrivata con un certificato medico rubato e lo ha usato per annullare il contratto? > Stipulare una polizza assicurativa senza dichiarare di soffrire di una > certa malattia, costituisce anche un reato e pregiudica qualsiasi tipo > di copertura. Presente, futura e, spesso, anche passata. Sì e per ottenere il contratto di assicurazione occorre fornire il proprio consenso al trattamento dei dati, anche sanitari nel caso in cui la polizza assicuri per eventi legati allo stato di salute dell'assicurato: no consenso? No party! ... sbaglio? > Ingenuolo dovrà cambiare casa perché non gli è stato rinnovato > l'affitto. Pare che il proprietario non gradisca affittare a persone > con un particolare orientamento sessuale che, adesso, tutti > conoscono. Se l'affittuario dovesse riuscire a dimostrare il nesso causale (e non, per esempio, che il contratto scade e il proprietario vuole semplicemente vendere) si tratterebbe di discriminazione bella e buona e io mi aspetterei che in uno stato civile la cosa sia pesantemente sanzionata; non bastano 10000 gay-pride per dirsi civili > Purtroppo la banca non approverà mai il mutuo che è stato chiesto > perché Ingenuolo non è un cliente come gli altri, è completamente > trasparente a chi deve valutare il rischio connesso alla restituzione > del denaro. [...] Vale più o meno quello che vale per le assicurazioni ...e comunque Ingenuolo è già disoccupato perché il suo datore di lavoro ha scoperto che ha una grave malattia immunodepressiva e per quello lo ha licenziato, quindi non può neanche _iniziare_ a chiedere un mutuo > Ingenuolo si era anche candidato in un partito che professa posizioni > radicali rispetto ad alcuni trattamenti sanitari. Ingenuolo dovrà > rinunciare perché i criminali hanno venduto al partito avversario > informazioni e documenti che testimoniano il suo ricorso a quelle > stesse pratiche mediche che pubblicamente avversa. già, perché i fottuti criminali trovano sempre qualche rispettabile /dossieratore/ a cui vendere informazioni scottanti per rimpolpare il dossier e fare in modo che tutti i politici siano più o meno _ricattabili_ quindi chi è senza compassione: i criminali informatici o i /dossieratori/ di politici? [...] > [...] Ah, naturalmente, mentre Ingenuolo si interfaccerà con i suoi > macellai, si esporrà anche ad invisibili attacchi diretti e, senza > accorgersene, il suo computer verrà compromesso, sì perché Ingenuolo non ha mai pensato a quanto faccia letteralmente schifo la sicurezza del suo computer, dopotutto a lui basta saper usare quattro fogli Excel, due Word e navigare tra il serio e il faceto sul web ...ma gli stronzi sono i criminali che rubano i dati, non quelli che gli vendono i computer coi sistemi bacati (e lui che non ne vuole sapere nulla di sicurezza informatica) [...] > A questo punto Ingenuolo potrebbe cominciare a capire come funzionano > gli ingranaggi di questa arancia meccanica digitale [...] > Ingenuolo vorrà smettere di esistere perché capirà che, purtroppo, non > c'è altro modo per liberarsi di questo invincibile e spietato nemico > invisibile. ecco, direi che con questa metafora kubrichiana Ingenuolo può anche decidere che è spacciato e /digitalmente/ spararsi un colpo in testa, per anticipare il nemico invisibile [...] > i nostri dati sensibili, affidati a soggetti incapaci di tutelarli > come meritano e nel modo richiesto dalla legge. e a questi INCAPACI cosa succede, in punta di diritto?!? [...] > molti hanno deciso di fare prevenzione con un test diagnostico, di > sottoporsi a cure volontarie o non strettamente necessarie. Hanno > quindi deciso liberamente di registrarsi: fornire nome, cognome, dare > l'assenso per essere inseriti in un database, nel gestionale di una > clinica, tra i file di un dermatologo, ecc. > > Chiunque si trovi in questa situazione dovrebbe biasimare se stesso, > tuttavia siamo inclini a non farlo. [...] pensa che cretino 'sto Ingenuolo che pensava ci fosse qualcuno che avrebbe pensato a farlo rispettare il GDPR! ...e invece no: è colpa tua, Ingenuolo! Tu sei da biasimare perché hai dato il consenso; il /consenso/ è il tuo "peccato originale", quindi "vivrai con dolore"... > una fitta schiera di lavoratori, di assicurati che hanno denunciato un > sinistro, di sportivi agonisti e di altre persone nella medesima > situazione hanno dovuto fare visite e accertamenti, non per scelta, ma > per obbligo di legge. anche il rispetto del GDPR è un obbligo di legge > Molti lavoratori non hanno scelta e si devono sottoporre periodicamente > a visite ed esami, spesso in centri medici o cliniche. Fa parte del > lavoro ed è una misura di prevenzione obbligatoria. idem come sopra: anche il GDPR [...] > La verità, purtroppo, è che dietro ad ogni data breach c'è solo la > spietata legge dei grandi numeri. > > Siamo tanti, tantissimi, siamo troppi da gestire con le scarse risorse > che abbiamo a disposizione. questo modus cogitandi puzza di neo-malthusianesimo lontano un chilometro, ma soprassediamo > I grandi numeri richiedono logiche di analisi, efficientamento e > razionalizzazione che di umano conservano ben poco e che richiedono > molti dati, anzi, TUTTI i dati. no dati? no malthus-party! > La gestione della spesa sanitaria è governata dall'analisi dei dati. mettendo per un attimo da parte il malthusianesimo dell'azione governativa siffatta: dati non anonimizzati? [...] > Oggi, in tutto questo, la protezione dei dati non è affatto > contemplata. quindi il GDPR è SOLO "legal washing": la legge l'avemo fatta, tutt'apposto! > Ma tutto ciò è anche una precisa scelta politica e, quindi, può > cambiare. tipo che chi di dovere (chi è?!?) potrebbe iniziare a applicare il GDPR? non ci credo :-D > La complessità dei sistemi, la quantità di dati sia a livello > periferico che centralizzato, la loro condivisione tra soggetti > variamente affidabili, la cialtronaggine che, per natura, si incontra > lungo la propria strada, la scarsità di risorse investite nella > protezione e il costante, sempiterno primato dell'approccio reattivo, > a danno dell'approccio preventivo la diagnosi è impeccabile, ci vorrebbe una prognosi... [...] > /“Ma sì, signora, qui c'è la sua scheda, vede? Dimessa il 1 gennaio > 1975, peso 2,050 chilogrammi…“/ > > /“Signora, guardi che è quando sono nata.”/ E il signor Menoingenuolo, che oltretutto è esperto in materia, cosa ha potuto fare per "sanare" la malefatta? > Ecco, non sarà un po' troppo? > > È veramente necessario che dati come questi siano nel server, > immediatamente disponibili, accessibili e in linea dopo 40 anni? Che > fine ha fatto il principio della minimizzazione dei dati previsto > dall'art 5 del GDPR? no no: che fine ha fatto proprio TUTTO il GDPR? [...] > Dobbiamo smettere di pensare che le macchine ci possano tutelare > meglio di quanto possiamo fare noi. questa è bella, me la devo incorniciare :-) > I nostri dati devono essere in casa nostra, in una cartellina. Mi raccomando: una _cartellina_ in carta e ossa! ...altrimenti poi Windows Recall la fotografa e la salva nel database che i crininali riescono a rubare a Ingenuolo come le caramelle ai bambini > Possono essere anche in ospedale, ma sempre in una cartellina o in un > sistema di archiviazione segregato e distinto da quelli in produzione. Bingo! ...magari in un database di archiviazione che preveda la crittografia asimmetrica per determinati dati sensibili [2] e archivi di documenti altrettanto crittografati "on rest" Possible che certi accorgimenti di progettazione NON siano applicati nei sistemi che trattano dati sensibili?!?!?!? Possibile che la qualità del lavoro - in questo caso IT - sia arrivata a livelli così infimi? Aggià: dobbiamo massimizzare i risultati col minimo delle risorse! (soprattutto neuronali) > Minimizzare i rischi significa fare in modo che, se c'è un furto di > dati, ne vengano rubati il meno possibile. Sì certo: minimizzare i dati al massimo ...ma anche: quei pochi che dovessero essere rubati sono inservibili perché crittografati [...] > Pensare che un software, un gestionale o un server possa proteggere i > nostri dati in modo adeguato significa non rendersi conto che quel > programma e quella macchina rispondono a logiche differenti, che sono > stati predisposti da persone con obiettivi differenti [...] no no: non ci siamo proprio la protezione dei dati è l'obiettivo primario di chi progetta, implementa e gestisce sistemi di immagazzinamento dati (database) e "server" in generale... altrimenti che ci stanno a fare? ...oppure "basta che vadi" e fatti li **221 tua?!? non parlo di /teoria/, ma di _pratica_: da decenni i progettisti e i sistemisti seri - per fare un esempio - non memorizzano MAI in chiaro le password degli utenti nei database, ormai è banale: perché non dovrebbe essere così anche con altri "dati sensibili"? perché non è un obbligo di legge memorizzare i dati sensibili in modo crittografato? [...] > Perché nella nostra area utente del fighissimo portale online, per > scaricare i referti in autonomia, possiamo vedere più informazioni su > di noi di quelle che conosce nostra madre? perché invece di avere un portale online, cioè il nostro fascicolo sanitario regionale (con i dati e i documenti "in chiaro"???), non possiamo avere un programma installato sul nostro computer al quale vengono inviati messaggi _crittografati_ contenenti referti, analisi et al? chessò una roba tipo GNUnet [3] + MyGNUHealth [4]? possibile che siamo ancora all'età della pietra? [...] saluti da Ingenuolo. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/IT/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02016R0679-2… [2] https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/encryption-options.html [3] https://www.gnunet.org/en/ [4] https://docs.gnuhealth.org//mygnuhealth/ -- 380° (Giovanni Biscuolo public alter ego) «Noi, incompetenti come siamo, non abbiamo alcun titolo per suggerire alcunché» Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustice but very few check the facts. Ask me about <https://stallmansupport.org>.

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] Possibile accordo di maggioranza per chatcontrol: gli utenti che rifiutano la scansione non potranno condividere foto e link

by Andrea Barontini

grazie della segnalazione! ...sembra fatta per poter sempre dire che l'istanza di turno non e' stata presa in considerazione perche' inviata all'email sbagliata in quanto non competente :D Del tipo: se non puoi impedire di contattarti, rendi improbabile trovate il contatto giusto :D Grazie ancora Il 18/06/24 18:26, Marco Fioretti ha scritto: > hai provato anche con gli indirizzi email in questa pagina? > > https://italiaue.esteri.it/it/chi-siamo/ > <https://italiaue.esteri.it/it/chi-siamo/> > > > > > On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 17:30, Andrea Barontini via nexa > <nexa(a)server-nexa.polito.it> wrote: > > Grazie Stefano. > > Ma sapete cos'e' la cosa "bella" (e molto italiana)? > > Questa (sono schifato): > > This is the mail system at Proton Mail. > > Your email could not be delivered to one or more recipients. > See below for the delivery error and email. > > The most common reasons for undelivered email are wrong recipient > address or wrong configuration on the recipient mail server. > > Learn more about delivery errors in our knowledge base: > https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors > <https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors> > > <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it <mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it>>: host > mail2.esteri.it[85.116.228.212] said: 550 #5.1.0 > Address rejected. (in reply to RCPT TO command) > > ---------------------------------------------- > message/delivery-status > ---------------------------------------------- > Reporting-MTA: dns; mail-4317.proton.ch > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it > <mailto:andrea.barontini@bybaro.it> > Arrival-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > <mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it> > Original-Recipient: rfc822;rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > <mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it> > Action: failed > Status: 5.0.0 > Remote-MTA: dns; mail2.esteri.it > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. > > ---------------------------------------------- > message/rfc822 > ---------------------------------------------- > Return-Path: <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it > <mailto:andrea.barontini@bybaro.it>> > Received: from vmk-taskfra1-17.plabs.ch (vmk-taskfra1-17.data.plabs.ch > [10.2.161.245]) > (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) > key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) > server-digest > SHA256) > (No client certificate requested) > by mail-4317.proton.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV > for <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it <mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it>>; Tue, 18 > Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bybaro.it; > s=protonmail; t=1718723989; x=1718983189; > bh=NB0j+6B1pqp/b0y3PWhCAHJ58r+j5IKypkSYri89PSA=; > h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: > Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; > b=ehrRE6UOCiRhqJK8zWQrkYaX9MqHIcIqRCCrdJipmmUWzysnlfmDeTsQMe6Zv3F8K > V+gH12JW5GxBkVbVwJBibXmr4xjMMwzxL9LdHc1+4Tb2Kou+vynbCp2YODv3+zjUTp > E/ye2nW+9YUDSuhOzAGaWSoVsFaVJhrhckvlQhGc2CWLZZ8MF+zu8U9uLqXVdOpJhJ > H1b64k9cGauxTMBaFLwCoPMO35fHFQ4HhvVYweX3WuFZhhZxiFZ+s319weYgwDCkPX > wuZONqkaSEksNwbjRb1MNU6pNJJae3d6pQCgj4eev3AsPnAP6N9PcF0D7qJNzoh3eV > YYiCMryISsP5A== > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:44 +0000 > To: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it <mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it> > From: Andrea Barontini <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it > <mailto:andrea.barontini@bybaro.it>> > Subject: Votazione Chat Control > Message-ID: <2e845301-d6b0-4a84-8019-bfdb6948f542(a)bybaro.it > <mailto:2e845301-d6b0-4a84-8019-bfdb6948f542@bybaro.it>> > Feedback-ID: 33279098:user:proton > X-Pm-Message-ID: 44e0bfd12b2eec24e938b17b83fcb8c751fbc07b > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Buonasera > > scrivo per esprimere il mio auspicio che l'Italia si opponga=20 > all'iniziativa comunemente nota come "Chat Control" oggetto di > votazione=20 > nella giornata di Mercoledi' 19 Giugno. > > Pur comprendendo la probabile buona fede di una parte dei promotori,=20 > volta al contrasto di delitti di particolare gravita', mi ritrovo=20 > tuttavia nelle preoccupazioni di chi vede in tale iniziativa un=20 > pericoloso precedente che troppo facilmente si presterebbe a > estensioni=20 > d'uso lesive della privacy e quindi liberta' personale. > > Ringraziando per l'attenzione accordata, > porgo cordiali saluti > > Andrea Barontini > > Il 18/06/24 17:06, Stefano Borroni Barale ha scritto: > > Visto che mancava una versione italiana del testo da inviare > l'ho tirata giù al volo traducendo il testo Inglese. > Se può servire ho inviato quanto segue: > > Destinatario: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it <mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it> > Oggetto: Stop all'abolizione della privacy digitale della > corrispondenza ("Deroga e-Privacy") > > Buongiorno, > il Parlamento europeo sta attualmente negoziando una deroga alla > cosiddetta direttiva e-Privacy (2002/58/CE) con l'intento > dichiarato di "combattere gli abusi sessuali dei minori online". > L'attuazione di questa iniziativa comporterebbe un massiccio > screening indiscriminato di tutti i messaggi privati, le chat e > le e-mail alla ricerca di contenuti sospetti. > > In altre parole, la deroga alla direttiva e-Privacy comporta > l'abolizione del segreto della corrispondenza, che garantisce la > riservatezza delle comunicazioni online a partire dal 21 > dicembre 2020, data di entrata in vigore del Codice europeo > delle comunicazioni elettroniche (nonché dal 1948 nella prima > parte della nostra Costituzione Italiana). > > Con la presente desidero condividere con voi la mia massima > preoccupazione per l'adozione di questa proposta di regolamento. > L'uso completamente automatizzato della cosiddetta "intelligenza > artificiale" per setacciamenti a tappeto e in tempo reale delle > comunicazioni private rappresenta una massiccia violazione dei > diritti umani fondamentali. Di conseguenza, tutti i cittadini > sono potenzialmente sospettati di diffondere immagini e testi > illegali senza alcun motivo. Tuttavia, secondo la giurisprudenza > della Corte di giustizia europea, una perquisizione > automatizzata permanente e generalizzata di comunicazioni > private viola i diritti fondamentali ed è quindi vietata (causa > C-511/18, par. 192). > > Allo stesso tempo, le perquisizioni automatizzate delle > comunicazioni private possono avere effetti dannosi su coloro > che dovrebbero essere protetti dal regolamento. Le vittime di > violenza sessuale hanno ripetutamente sottolineato la grande > importanza dei canali di comunicazione riservati. Tuttavia, > l'introduzione di un monitoraggio automatico in tempo reale > priverebbe le vittime di abusi proprio di questi spazi sicuri > per lo scambio e la comunicazione confidenziale con avvocati e > terapeuti. > > Infine, vorrei richiamare la vostra attenzione sui pericoli > delle tecnologie di riconoscimento di immagini e testi. Secondo > la Polizia federale svizzera, il 90% dei contenuti segnalati > dagli algoritmi non è di natura criminale e mostra, ad esempio, > foto di vacanze scattate in spiaggia con bambini che giocano. > Tuttavia, anche un'indagine penale ingiustificata può > distruggere famiglie e vite. Inoltre, i giovani saranno > criminalizzati in modo sproporzionato dall'introduzione dei > controlli sulle chat. Secondo le statistiche tedesche sulla > criminalità, il 40% di tutte le indagini per possesso di > materiale pedopornografico ha come obiettivo i minori. > > Vi chiedo quindi di difendere i nostri diritti civili > fondamentali e di votare contro l'adozione della deroga alla > direttiva sulla privacy elettronica. > > Cordiali saluti > > Inviato con l'email sicura Proton Mail. > > martedì 18 giugno 2024 16:42, Andrea Barontini via nexa > <nexa(a)server-nexa.polito.it <mailto:nexa@server-nexa.polito.it>> > ha scritto: > > A proposito di questo thread, segnalo che domani 19 giugno > ci sara' la > votazione per ChatControl. > > Mi permetto di segnalare (perche' e' l'unica pagina che ho > trovato in > Italiano): > https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig… <https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig…> > > Da uno dei link si puo' arrivare ai contatti della > rappresentanza > permanente dell'Italia, qualora si ritenga di voler esprimere un > auspicio qualificato: > https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/… <https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/…> > > Saluti > > Il 07/06/24 15:58, Giacomo Tesio ha scritto: > > Segnalo, qualora non sia ancora passato in lista: > > https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-… <https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-…> > > Dopotutto, la controversa regolamentazione > indiscriminata sugli abusi > sessuali sui minori (il cosiddetto chatcontrol) potrebbe > ancora essere > approvata dai governi dell’UE, poiché la Francia > potrebbe rinunciare al > suo precedente veto. Lo riporta Euractiv e lo confermano > documenti > interni . La Francia considera in linea di principio la > nuova proposta > di “moderazione degli upload” come un’opzione praticabile. > > Secondo l’ultima proposta di regolamento del 28 maggio ( > documento del > Consiglio 9093/24 ), presentata come “moderazione degli > upload”, si > dovrebbe chiedere agli utenti di app e servizi con > funzioni di chat se > accettano la scansione indiscriminata e soggetta a errori ed > eventualmente segnalazione delle immagini, foto e video > condivisi > privatamente. Anche immagini e video precedentemente > sconosciuti > dovranno essere esaminati utilizzando la tecnologia > dell’“intelligenza > artificiale”. Se un utente rifiuta la scansione, gli > verrà impedito di > inviare o ricevere immagini, foto, video e collegamenti > (articolo 10). > I servizi crittografati end-to-end come Whatsapp o > Signal dovrebbero > implementare le ricerche automatizzate “prima della > trasmissione” di un > messaggio (la cosiddetta scansione lato client, articolo > 10a). La > scansione inizialmente proposta dei messaggi di testo > per indicazioni > di adescamento, che finora non viene quasi utilizzata, > sarà eliminata, > così come la scansione della comunicazione vocale, che > non è mai stata > eseguita prima. Probabilmente come concessione alla > Francia, anche le > chat dei dipendenti delle autorità di sicurezza e dei > militari saranno > esentate da chatcontrol. > > Anche su: > https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w… <https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w…> > > Giacomo >

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] Possibile accordo di maggioranza per chatcontrol: gli utenti che rifiutano la scansione non potranno condividere foto e link

by Marco Fioretti

hai provato anche con gli indirizzi email in questa pagina? https://italiaue.esteri.it/it/chi-siamo/ (https://italiaue.esteri.it/it/chi-siamo/) On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 17:30, Andrea Barontini via nexa wrote: Grazie Stefano. Ma sapete cos'e' la cosa "bella" (e molto italiana)? Questa (sono schifato): This is the mail system at Proton Mail. Your email could not be delivered to one or more recipients. See below for the delivery error and email. The most common reasons for undelivered email are wrong recipient address or wrong configuration on the recipient mail server. Learn more about delivery errors in our knowledge base: https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors (https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors) : host mail2.esteri.it[85.116.228.212] said: 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. (in reply to RCPT TO command) ---------------------------------------------- message/delivery-status ---------------------------------------------- Reporting-MTA: dns; mail-4317.proton.ch X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it (mailto:andrea.barontini@bybaro.it) Arrival-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) Final-Recipient: rfc822; rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it (mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it) Original-Recipient: rfc822;rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it (mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it) Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Remote-MTA: dns; mail2.esteri.it Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. ---------------------------------------------- message/rfc822 ---------------------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from vmk-taskfra1-17.plabs.ch (vmk-taskfra1-17.data.plabs.ch [10.2.161.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail-4317.proton.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bybaro.it; s=protonmail; t=1718723989; x=1718983189; bh=NB0j+6B1pqp/b0y3PWhCAHJ58r+j5IKypkSYri89PSA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=ehrRE6UOCiRhqJK8zWQrkYaX9MqHIcIqRCCrdJipmmUWzysnlfmDeTsQMe6Zv3F8K V+gH12JW5GxBkVbVwJBibXmr4xjMMwzxL9LdHc1+4Tb2Kou+vynbCp2YODv3+zjUTp E/ye2nW+9YUDSuhOzAGaWSoVsFaVJhrhckvlQhGc2CWLZZ8MF+zu8U9uLqXVdOpJhJ H1b64k9cGauxTMBaFLwCoPMO35fHFQ4HhvVYweX3WuFZhhZxiFZ+s319weYgwDCkPX wuZONqkaSEksNwbjRb1MNU6pNJJae3d6pQCgj4eev3AsPnAP6N9PcF0D7qJNzoh3eV YYiCMryISsP5A== Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:44 +0000 To: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it (mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it) From: Andrea Barontini Subject: Votazione Chat Control Message-ID: Feedback-ID: 33279098:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 44e0bfd12b2eec24e938b17b83fcb8c751fbc07b MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Buonasera scrivo per esprimere il mio auspicio che l'Italia si opponga=20 all'iniziativa comunemente nota come "Chat Control" oggetto di votazione=20 nella giornata di Mercoledi' 19 Giugno. Pur comprendendo la probabile buona fede di una parte dei promotori,=20 volta al contrasto di delitti di particolare gravita', mi ritrovo=20 tuttavia nelle preoccupazioni di chi vede in tale iniziativa un=20 pericoloso precedente che troppo facilmente si presterebbe a estensioni=20 d'uso lesive della privacy e quindi liberta' personale. Ringraziando per l'attenzione accordata, porgo cordiali saluti Andrea Barontini Il 18/06/24 17:06, Stefano Borroni Barale ha scritto: Visto che mancava una versione italiana del testo da inviare l'ho tirata giù al volo traducendo il testo Inglese. Se può servire ho inviato quanto segue: Destinatario: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it (mailto:rpue.rpue@esteri.it) Oggetto: Stop all'abolizione della privacy digitale della corrispondenza ("Deroga e-Privacy") Buongiorno, il Parlamento europeo sta attualmente negoziando una deroga alla cosiddetta direttiva e-Privacy (2002/58/CE) con l'intento dichiarato di "combattere gli abusi sessuali dei minori online". L'attuazione di questa iniziativa comporterebbe un massiccio screening indiscriminato di tutti i messaggi privati, le chat e le e-mail alla ricerca di contenuti sospetti. In altre parole, la deroga alla direttiva e-Privacy comporta l'abolizione del segreto della corrispondenza, che garantisce la riservatezza delle comunicazioni online a partire dal 21 dicembre 2020, data di entrata in vigore del Codice europeo delle comunicazioni elettroniche (nonché dal 1948 nella prima parte della nostra Costituzione Italiana). Con la presente desidero condividere con voi la mia massima preoccupazione per l'adozione di questa proposta di regolamento. L'uso completamente automatizzato della cosiddetta "intelligenza artificiale" per setacciamenti a tappeto e in tempo reale delle comunicazioni private rappresenta una massiccia violazione dei diritti umani fondamentali. Di conseguenza, tutti i cittadini sono potenzialmente sospettati di diffondere immagini e testi illegali senza alcun motivo. Tuttavia, secondo la giurisprudenza della Corte di giustizia europea, una perquisizione automatizzata permanente e generalizzata di comunicazioni private viola i diritti fondamentali ed è quindi vietata (causa C-511/18, par. 192). Allo stesso tempo, le perquisizioni automatizzate delle comunicazioni private possono avere effetti dannosi su coloro che dovrebbero essere protetti dal regolamento. Le vittime di violenza sessuale hanno ripetutamente sottolineato la grande importanza dei canali di comunicazione riservati. Tuttavia, l'introduzione di un monitoraggio automatico in tempo reale priverebbe le vittime di abusi proprio di questi spazi sicuri per lo scambio e la comunicazione confidenziale con avvocati e terapeuti. Infine, vorrei richiamare la vostra attenzione sui pericoli delle tecnologie di riconoscimento di immagini e testi. Secondo la Polizia federale svizzera, il 90% dei contenuti segnalati dagli algoritmi non è di natura criminale e mostra, ad esempio, foto di vacanze scattate in spiaggia con bambini che giocano. Tuttavia, anche un'indagine penale ingiustificata può distruggere famiglie e vite. Inoltre, i giovani saranno criminalizzati in modo sproporzionato dall'introduzione dei controlli sulle chat. Secondo le statistiche tedesche sulla criminalità, il 40% di tutte le indagini per possesso di materiale pedopornografico ha come obiettivo i minori. Vi chiedo quindi di difendere i nostri diritti civili fondamentali e di votare contro l'adozione della deroga alla direttiva sulla privacy elettronica. Cordiali saluti Inviato con l'email sicura Proton Mail. martedì 18 giugno 2024 16:42, Andrea Barontini via nexa ha scritto: A proposito di questo thread, segnalo che domani 19 giugno ci sara' la votazione per ChatControl. Mi permetto di segnalare (perche' e' l'unica pagina che ho trovato in Italiano): https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig… (https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig…) Da uno dei link si puo' arrivare ai contatti della rappresentanza permanente dell'Italia, qualora si ritenga di voler esprimere un auspicio qualificato: https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/… (https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/…) Saluti Il 07/06/24 15:58, Giacomo Tesio ha scritto: Segnalo, qualora non sia ancora passato in lista: https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-… (https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-…) Dopotutto, la controversa regolamentazione indiscriminata sugli abusi sessuali sui minori (il cosiddetto chatcontrol) potrebbe ancora essere approvata dai governi dell’UE, poiché la Francia potrebbe rinunciare al suo precedente veto. Lo riporta Euractiv e lo confermano documenti interni . La Francia considera in linea di principio la nuova proposta di “moderazione degli upload” come un’opzione praticabile. Secondo l’ultima proposta di regolamento del 28 maggio ( documento del Consiglio 9093/24 ), presentata come “moderazione degli upload”, si dovrebbe chiedere agli utenti di app e servizi con funzioni di chat se accettano la scansione indiscriminata e soggetta a errori ed eventualmente segnalazione delle immagini, foto e video condivisi privatamente. Anche immagini e video precedentemente sconosciuti dovranno essere esaminati utilizzando la tecnologia dell’“intelligenza artificiale”. Se un utente rifiuta la scansione, gli verrà impedito di inviare o ricevere immagini, foto, video e collegamenti (articolo 10). I servizi crittografati end-to-end come Whatsapp o Signal dovrebbero implementare le ricerche automatizzate “prima della trasmissione” di un messaggio (la cosiddetta scansione lato client, articolo 10a). La scansione inizialmente proposta dei messaggi di testo per indicazioni di adescamento, che finora non viene quasi utilizzata, sarà eliminata, così come la scansione della comunicazione vocale, che non è mai stata eseguita prima. Probabilmente come concessione alla Francia, anche le chat dei dipendenti delle autorità di sicurezza e dei militari saranno esentate da chatcontrol. Anche su: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w… (https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w…) Giacomo

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] Possibile accordo di maggioranza per chatcontrol: gli utenti che rifiutano la scansione non potranno condividere foto e link

by Andrea Barontini

allucinante... Il 18/06/24 17:31, Stefano Borroni Barale ha scritto: > Basta eliminare la ripetizione. Probabilmente la geniale trovata di qualche "esperto di cybersec" :-) > Stefano > > Inviato da Proton Mail Android > > > -------- Messaggio originale -------- > 18/06/24 17:29, Andrea Barontini <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> ha scritto: > >> Grazie Stefano. >> >> Ma sapete cos'e' la cosa "bella" (e molto italiana)? >> >> Questa (sono schifato): >> >> >> >> This is the mail system at Proton Mail. >> >> Your email could not be delivered to one or more recipients. >> See below for the delivery error and email. >> >> The most common reasons for undelivered email are wrong recipient >> address or wrong configuration on the recipient mail server. >> >> Learn more about delivery errors in our knowledge base: >> https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors >> >> >> <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it>: host mail2.esteri.it[85.116.228.212] said: 550 #5.1.0 >> Address rejected. (in reply to RCPT TO command) >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> message/delivery-status >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Reporting-MTA: dns; mail-4317.proton.ch >> X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV >> X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it >> Arrival-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) >> >> Final-Recipient: rfc822; rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it >> Original-Recipient: rfc822;rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it >> Action: failed >> Status: 5.0.0 >> Remote-MTA: dns; mail2.esteri.it >> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> message/rfc822 >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Return-Path: <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> >> Received: from vmk-taskfra1-17.plabs.ch (vmk-taskfra1-17.data.plabs.ch >> [10.2.161.245]) >> (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) >> key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest >> SHA256) >> (No client certificate requested) >> by mail-4317.proton.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV >> for <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it>; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) >> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bybaro.it; >> s=protonmail; t=1718723989; x=1718983189; >> bh=NB0j+6B1pqp/b0y3PWhCAHJ58r+j5IKypkSYri89PSA=; >> h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: >> Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; >> b=ehrRE6UOCiRhqJK8zWQrkYaX9MqHIcIqRCCrdJipmmUWzysnlfmDeTsQMe6Zv3F8K >> V+gH12JW5GxBkVbVwJBibXmr4xjMMwzxL9LdHc1+4Tb2Kou+vynbCp2YODv3+zjUTp >> E/ye2nW+9YUDSuhOzAGaWSoVsFaVJhrhckvlQhGc2CWLZZ8MF+zu8U9uLqXVdOpJhJ >> H1b64k9cGauxTMBaFLwCoPMO35fHFQ4HhvVYweX3WuFZhhZxiFZ+s319weYgwDCkPX >> wuZONqkaSEksNwbjRb1MNU6pNJJae3d6pQCgj4eev3AsPnAP6N9PcF0D7qJNzoh3eV >> YYiCMryISsP5A== >> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:44 +0000 >> To: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it >> From: Andrea Barontini <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> >> Subject: Votazione Chat Control >> Message-ID: <2e845301-d6b0-4a84-8019-bfdb6948f542(a)bybaro.it> >> Feedback-ID: 33279098:user:proton >> X-Pm-Message-ID: 44e0bfd12b2eec24e938b17b83fcb8c751fbc07b >> MIME-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Buonasera >> >> scrivo per esprimere il mio auspicio che l'Italia si opponga=20 >> all'iniziativa comunemente nota come "Chat Control" oggetto di votazione=20 >> nella giornata di Mercoledi' 19 Giugno. >> >> Pur comprendendo la probabile buona fede di una parte dei promotori,=20 >> volta al contrasto di delitti di particolare gravita', mi ritrovo=20 >> tuttavia nelle preoccupazioni di chi vede in tale iniziativa un=20 >> pericoloso precedente che troppo facilmente si presterebbe a estensioni=20 >> d'uso lesive della privacy e quindi liberta' personale. >> >> Ringraziando per l'attenzione accordata, >> porgo cordiali saluti >> >> Andrea Barontini >> >> >> >> Il 18/06/24 17:06, Stefano Borroni Barale ha scritto: >> > Visto che mancava una versione italiana del testo da inviare l'ho tirata giù al volo traducendo il testo Inglese. >> > Se può servire ho inviato quanto segue: >> > >> > Destinatario: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it >> > Oggetto: Stop all'abolizione della privacy digitale della corrispondenza ("Deroga e-Privacy") >> > >> > Buongiorno, >> > il Parlamento europeo sta attualmente negoziando una deroga alla cosiddetta direttiva e-Privacy (2002/58/CE) con l'intento dichiarato di "combattere gli abusi sessuali dei minori online". L'attuazione di questa iniziativa comporterebbe un massiccio screening indiscriminato di tutti i messaggi privati, le chat e le e-mail alla ricerca di contenuti sospetti. >> > >> > In altre parole, la deroga alla direttiva e-Privacy comporta l'abolizione del segreto della corrispondenza, che garantisce la riservatezza delle comunicazioni online a partire dal 21 dicembre 2020, data di entrata in vigore del Codice europeo delle comunicazioni elettroniche (nonché dal 1948 nella prima parte della nostra Costituzione Italiana). >> > >> > Con la presente desidero condividere con voi la mia massima preoccupazione per l'adozione di questa proposta di regolamento. L'uso completamente automatizzato della cosiddetta "intelligenza artificiale" per setacciamenti a tappeto e in tempo reale delle comunicazioni private rappresenta una massiccia violazione dei diritti umani fondamentali. Di conseguenza, tutti i cittadini sono potenzialmente sospettati di diffondere immagini e testi illegali senza alcun motivo. Tuttavia, secondo la giurisprudenza della Corte di giustizia europea, una perquisizione automatizzata permanente e generalizzata di comunicazioni private viola i diritti fondamentali ed è quindi vietata (causa C-511/18, par. 192). >> > >> > Allo stesso tempo, le perquisizioni automatizzate delle comunicazioni private possono avere effetti dannosi su coloro che dovrebbero essere protetti dal regolamento. Le vittime di violenza sessuale hanno ripetutamente sottolineato la grande importanza dei canali di comunicazione riservati. Tuttavia, l'introduzione di un monitoraggio automatico in tempo reale priverebbe le vittime di abusi proprio di questi spazi sicuri per lo scambio e la comunicazione confidenziale con avvocati e terapeuti. >> > >> > Infine, vorrei richiamare la vostra attenzione sui pericoli delle tecnologie di riconoscimento di immagini e testi. Secondo la Polizia federale svizzera, il 90% dei contenuti segnalati dagli algoritmi non è di natura criminale e mostra, ad esempio, foto di vacanze scattate in spiaggia con bambini che giocano. Tuttavia, anche un'indagine penale ingiustificata può distruggere famiglie e vite. Inoltre, i giovani saranno criminalizzati in modo sproporzionato dall'introduzione dei controlli sulle chat. Secondo le statistiche tedesche sulla criminalità, il 40% di tutte le indagini per possesso di materiale pedopornografico ha come obiettivo i minori. >> > >> > Vi chiedo quindi di difendere i nostri diritti civili fondamentali e di votare contro l'adozione della deroga alla direttiva sulla privacy elettronica. >> > >> > Cordiali saluti >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Inviato con l'email sicura Proton Mail. >> > >> > martedì 18 giugno 2024 16:42, Andrea Barontini via nexa <nexa(a)server-nexa.polito.it> ha scritto: >> > >> >> A proposito di questo thread, segnalo che domani 19 giugno ci sara' la >> >> votazione per ChatControl. >> >> >> >> Mi permetto di segnalare (perche' e' l'unica pagina che ho trovato in >> >> Italiano): >> >> https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig… >> >> >> >> Da uno dei link si puo' arrivare ai contatti della rappresentanza >> >> permanente dell'Italia, qualora si ritenga di voler esprimere un >> >> auspicio qualificato: >> >> https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/… >> >> >> >> Saluti >> >> >> >> Il 07/06/24 15:58, Giacomo Tesio ha scritto: >> >> >> >>> Segnalo, qualora non sia ancora passato in lista: >> >>> >> >>> https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-… >> >>> >> >>> Dopotutto, la controversa regolamentazione indiscriminata sugli abusi >> >>> sessuali sui minori (il cosiddetto chatcontrol) potrebbe ancora essere >> >>> approvata dai governi dell’UE, poiché la Francia potrebbe rinunciare al >> >>> suo precedente veto. Lo riporta Euractiv e lo confermano documenti >> >>> interni . La Francia considera in linea di principio la nuova proposta >> >>> di “moderazione degli upload” come un’opzione praticabile. >> >>> >> >>> Secondo l’ultima proposta di regolamento del 28 maggio ( documento del >> >>> Consiglio 9093/24 ), presentata come “moderazione degli upload”, si >> >>> dovrebbe chiedere agli utenti di app e servizi con funzioni di chat se >> >>> accettano la scansione indiscriminata e soggetta a errori ed >> >>> eventualmente segnalazione delle immagini, foto e video condivisi >> >>> privatamente. Anche immagini e video precedentemente sconosciuti >> >>> dovranno essere esaminati utilizzando la tecnologia dell’“intelligenza >> >>> artificiale”. Se un utente rifiuta la scansione, gli verrà impedito di >> >>> inviare o ricevere immagini, foto, video e collegamenti (articolo 10). >> >>> I servizi crittografati end-to-end come Whatsapp o Signal dovrebbero >> >>> implementare le ricerche automatizzate “prima della trasmissione” di un >> >>> messaggio (la cosiddetta scansione lato client, articolo 10a). La >> >>> scansione inizialmente proposta dei messaggi di testo per indicazioni >> >>> di adescamento, che finora non viene quasi utilizzata, sarà eliminata, >> >>> così come la scansione della comunicazione vocale, che non è mai stata >> >>> eseguita prima. Probabilmente come concessione alla Francia, anche le >> >>> chat dei dipendenti delle autorità di sicurezza e dei militari saranno >> >>> esentate da chatcontrol. >> >>> >> >>> Anche su: >> >>> https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w… >> >>> >> >>> Giacomo >>

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] Possibile accordo di maggioranza per chatcontrol: gli utenti che rifiutano la scansione non potranno condividere foto e link

by Stefano Borroni Barale

Basta eliminare la ripetizione. Probabilmente la geniale trovata di qualche "esperto di cybersec" :-) Stefano Inviato da Proton Mail Android -------- Messaggio originale -------- 18/06/24 17:29, Andrea Barontini <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> ha scritto: > Grazie Stefano. > > Ma sapete cos'e' la cosa "bella" (e molto italiana)? > > Questa (sono schifato): > > > > This is the mail system at Proton Mail. > > Your email could not be delivered to one or more recipients. > See below for the delivery error and email. > > The most common reasons for undelivered email are wrong recipient > address or wrong configuration on the recipient mail server. > > Learn more about delivery errors in our knowledge base: > https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors > > > <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it>: host mail2.esteri.it[85.116.228.212] said: 550 #5.1.0 > Address rejected. (in reply to RCPT TO command) > > ---------------------------------------------- > message/delivery-status > ---------------------------------------------- > Reporting-MTA: dns; mail-4317.proton.ch > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it > Arrival-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > Original-Recipient: rfc822;rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > Action: failed > Status: 5.0.0 > Remote-MTA: dns; mail2.esteri.it > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. > > ---------------------------------------------- > message/rfc822 > ---------------------------------------------- > Return-Path: <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> > Received: from vmk-taskfra1-17.plabs.ch (vmk-taskfra1-17.data.plabs.ch > [10.2.161.245]) > (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) > key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest > SHA256) > (No client certificate requested) > by mail-4317.proton.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV > for <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it>; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bybaro.it; > s=protonmail; t=1718723989; x=1718983189; > bh=NB0j+6B1pqp/b0y3PWhCAHJ58r+j5IKypkSYri89PSA=; > h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: > Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; > b=ehrRE6UOCiRhqJK8zWQrkYaX9MqHIcIqRCCrdJipmmUWzysnlfmDeTsQMe6Zv3F8K > V+gH12JW5GxBkVbVwJBibXmr4xjMMwzxL9LdHc1+4Tb2Kou+vynbCp2YODv3+zjUTp > E/ye2nW+9YUDSuhOzAGaWSoVsFaVJhrhckvlQhGc2CWLZZ8MF+zu8U9uLqXVdOpJhJ > H1b64k9cGauxTMBaFLwCoPMO35fHFQ4HhvVYweX3WuFZhhZxiFZ+s319weYgwDCkPX > wuZONqkaSEksNwbjRb1MNU6pNJJae3d6pQCgj4eev3AsPnAP6N9PcF0D7qJNzoh3eV > YYiCMryISsP5A== > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:44 +0000 > To: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > From: Andrea Barontini <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> > Subject: Votazione Chat Control > Message-ID: <2e845301-d6b0-4a84-8019-bfdb6948f542(a)bybaro.it> > Feedback-ID: 33279098:user:proton > X-Pm-Message-ID: 44e0bfd12b2eec24e938b17b83fcb8c751fbc07b > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Buonasera > > scrivo per esprimere il mio auspicio che l'Italia si opponga=20 > all'iniziativa comunemente nota come "Chat Control" oggetto di votazione=20 > nella giornata di Mercoledi' 19 Giugno. > > Pur comprendendo la probabile buona fede di una parte dei promotori,=20 > volta al contrasto di delitti di particolare gravita', mi ritrovo=20 > tuttavia nelle preoccupazioni di chi vede in tale iniziativa un=20 > pericoloso precedente che troppo facilmente si presterebbe a estensioni=20 > d'uso lesive della privacy e quindi liberta' personale. > > Ringraziando per l'attenzione accordata, > porgo cordiali saluti > > Andrea Barontini > > > > Il 18/06/24 17:06, Stefano Borroni Barale ha scritto: > > Visto che mancava una versione italiana del testo da inviare l'ho tirata giù al volo traducendo il testo Inglese. > > Se può servire ho inviato quanto segue: > > > > Destinatario: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > > Oggetto: Stop all'abolizione della privacy digitale della corrispondenza ("Deroga e-Privacy") > > > > Buongiorno, > > il Parlamento europeo sta attualmente negoziando una deroga alla cosiddetta direttiva e-Privacy (2002/58/CE) con l'intento dichiarato di "combattere gli abusi sessuali dei minori online". L'attuazione di questa iniziativa comporterebbe un massiccio screening indiscriminato di tutti i messaggi privati, le chat e le e-mail alla ricerca di contenuti sospetti. > > > > In altre parole, la deroga alla direttiva e-Privacy comporta l'abolizione del segreto della corrispondenza, che garantisce la riservatezza delle comunicazioni online a partire dal 21 dicembre 2020, data di entrata in vigore del Codice europeo delle comunicazioni elettroniche (nonché dal 1948 nella prima parte della nostra Costituzione Italiana). > > > > Con la presente desidero condividere con voi la mia massima preoccupazione per l'adozione di questa proposta di regolamento. L'uso completamente automatizzato della cosiddetta "intelligenza artificiale" per setacciamenti a tappeto e in tempo reale delle comunicazioni private rappresenta una massiccia violazione dei diritti umani fondamentali. Di conseguenza, tutti i cittadini sono potenzialmente sospettati di diffondere immagini e testi illegali senza alcun motivo. Tuttavia, secondo la giurisprudenza della Corte di giustizia europea, una perquisizione automatizzata permanente e generalizzata di comunicazioni private viola i diritti fondamentali ed è quindi vietata (causa C-511/18, par. 192). > > > > Allo stesso tempo, le perquisizioni automatizzate delle comunicazioni private possono avere effetti dannosi su coloro che dovrebbero essere protetti dal regolamento. Le vittime di violenza sessuale hanno ripetutamente sottolineato la grande importanza dei canali di comunicazione riservati. Tuttavia, l'introduzione di un monitoraggio automatico in tempo reale priverebbe le vittime di abusi proprio di questi spazi sicuri per lo scambio e la comunicazione confidenziale con avvocati e terapeuti. > > > > Infine, vorrei richiamare la vostra attenzione sui pericoli delle tecnologie di riconoscimento di immagini e testi. Secondo la Polizia federale svizzera, il 90% dei contenuti segnalati dagli algoritmi non è di natura criminale e mostra, ad esempio, foto di vacanze scattate in spiaggia con bambini che giocano. Tuttavia, anche un'indagine penale ingiustificata può distruggere famiglie e vite. Inoltre, i giovani saranno criminalizzati in modo sproporzionato dall'introduzione dei controlli sulle chat. Secondo le statistiche tedesche sulla criminalità, il 40% di tutte le indagini per possesso di materiale pedopornografico ha come obiettivo i minori. > > > > Vi chiedo quindi di difendere i nostri diritti civili fondamentali e di votare contro l'adozione della deroga alla direttiva sulla privacy elettronica. > > > > Cordiali saluti > > > > > > > > > > Inviato con l'email sicura Proton Mail. > > > > martedì 18 giugno 2024 16:42, Andrea Barontini via nexa <nexa(a)server-nexa.polito.it> ha scritto: > > > >> A proposito di questo thread, segnalo che domani 19 giugno ci sara' la > >> votazione per ChatControl. > >> > >> Mi permetto di segnalare (perche' e' l'unica pagina che ho trovato in > >> Italiano): > >> https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig… > >> > >> Da uno dei link si puo' arrivare ai contatti della rappresentanza > >> permanente dell'Italia, qualora si ritenga di voler esprimere un > >> auspicio qualificato: > >> https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/… > >> > >> Saluti > >> > >> Il 07/06/24 15:58, Giacomo Tesio ha scritto: > >> > >>> Segnalo, qualora non sia ancora passato in lista: > >>> > >>> https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-… > >>> > >>> Dopotutto, la controversa regolamentazione indiscriminata sugli abusi > >>> sessuali sui minori (il cosiddetto chatcontrol) potrebbe ancora essere > >>> approvata dai governi dell’UE, poiché la Francia potrebbe rinunciare al > >>> suo precedente veto. Lo riporta Euractiv e lo confermano documenti > >>> interni . La Francia considera in linea di principio la nuova proposta > >>> di “moderazione degli upload” come un’opzione praticabile. > >>> > >>> Secondo l’ultima proposta di regolamento del 28 maggio ( documento del > >>> Consiglio 9093/24 ), presentata come “moderazione degli upload”, si > >>> dovrebbe chiedere agli utenti di app e servizi con funzioni di chat se > >>> accettano la scansione indiscriminata e soggetta a errori ed > >>> eventualmente segnalazione delle immagini, foto e video condivisi > >>> privatamente. Anche immagini e video precedentemente sconosciuti > >>> dovranno essere esaminati utilizzando la tecnologia dell’“intelligenza > >>> artificiale”. Se un utente rifiuta la scansione, gli verrà impedito di > >>> inviare o ricevere immagini, foto, video e collegamenti (articolo 10). > >>> I servizi crittografati end-to-end come Whatsapp o Signal dovrebbero > >>> implementare le ricerche automatizzate “prima della trasmissione” di un > >>> messaggio (la cosiddetta scansione lato client, articolo 10a). La > >>> scansione inizialmente proposta dei messaggi di testo per indicazioni > >>> di adescamento, che finora non viene quasi utilizzata, sarà eliminata, > >>> così come la scansione della comunicazione vocale, che non è mai stata > >>> eseguita prima. Probabilmente come concessione alla Francia, anche le > >>> chat dei dipendenti delle autorità di sicurezza e dei militari saranno > >>> esentate da chatcontrol. > >>> > >>> Anche su: > >>> https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w… > >>> > >>> Giacomo >

June 18, 2024

Re: [nexa] Possibile accordo di maggioranza per chatcontrol: gli utenti che rifiutano la scansione non potranno condividere foto e link

by Andrea Barontini

Grazie Stefano. Ma sapete cos'e' la cosa "bella" (e molto italiana)? Questa (sono schifato): This is the mail system at Proton Mail. Your email could not be delivered to one or more recipients. See below for the delivery error and email. The most common reasons for undelivered email are wrong recipient address or wrong configuration on the recipient mail server. Learn more about delivery errors in our knowledge base: https://proton.me/support/smtp-errors <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it>: host mail2.esteri.it[85.116.228.212] said: 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. (in reply to RCPT TO command) ---------------------------------------------- message/delivery-status ---------------------------------------------- Reporting-MTA: dns; mail-4317.proton.ch X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it Arrival-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) Final-Recipient: rfc822; rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it Original-Recipient: rfc822;rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Remote-MTA: dns; mail2.esteri.it Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected. ---------------------------------------------- message/rfc822 ---------------------------------------------- Return-Path: <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> Received: from vmk-taskfra1-17.plabs.ch (vmk-taskfra1-17.data.plabs.ch [10.2.161.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail-4317.proton.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4W3VmP27WLz4wwdV for <rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it>; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bybaro.it; s=protonmail; t=1718723989; x=1718983189; bh=NB0j+6B1pqp/b0y3PWhCAHJ58r+j5IKypkSYri89PSA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date: Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID:Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=ehrRE6UOCiRhqJK8zWQrkYaX9MqHIcIqRCCrdJipmmUWzysnlfmDeTsQMe6Zv3F8K V+gH12JW5GxBkVbVwJBibXmr4xjMMwzxL9LdHc1+4Tb2Kou+vynbCp2YODv3+zjUTp E/ye2nW+9YUDSuhOzAGaWSoVsFaVJhrhckvlQhGc2CWLZZ8MF+zu8U9uLqXVdOpJhJ H1b64k9cGauxTMBaFLwCoPMO35fHFQ4HhvVYweX3WuFZhhZxiFZ+s319weYgwDCkPX wuZONqkaSEksNwbjRb1MNU6pNJJae3d6pQCgj4eev3AsPnAP6N9PcF0D7qJNzoh3eV YYiCMryISsP5A== Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 15:19:44 +0000 To: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it From: Andrea Barontini <andrea.barontini(a)bybaro.it> Subject: Votazione Chat Control Message-ID: <2e845301-d6b0-4a84-8019-bfdb6948f542(a)bybaro.it> Feedback-ID: 33279098:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 44e0bfd12b2eec24e938b17b83fcb8c751fbc07b MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Buonasera scrivo per esprimere il mio auspicio che l'Italia si opponga=20 all'iniziativa comunemente nota come "Chat Control" oggetto di votazione=20 nella giornata di Mercoledi' 19 Giugno. Pur comprendendo la probabile buona fede di una parte dei promotori,=20 volta al contrasto di delitti di particolare gravita', mi ritrovo=20 tuttavia nelle preoccupazioni di chi vede in tale iniziativa un=20 pericoloso precedente che troppo facilmente si presterebbe a estensioni=20 d'uso lesive della privacy e quindi liberta' personale. Ringraziando per l'attenzione accordata, porgo cordiali saluti Andrea Barontini Il 18/06/24 17:06, Stefano Borroni Barale ha scritto: > Visto che mancava una versione italiana del testo da inviare l'ho tirata giù al volo traducendo il testo Inglese. > Se può servire ho inviato quanto segue: > > Destinatario: rpue.rpue(a)esteri.it > Oggetto: Stop all'abolizione della privacy digitale della corrispondenza ("Deroga e-Privacy") > > Buongiorno, > il Parlamento europeo sta attualmente negoziando una deroga alla cosiddetta direttiva e-Privacy (2002/58/CE) con l'intento dichiarato di "combattere gli abusi sessuali dei minori online". L'attuazione di questa iniziativa comporterebbe un massiccio screening indiscriminato di tutti i messaggi privati, le chat e le e-mail alla ricerca di contenuti sospetti. > > In altre parole, la deroga alla direttiva e-Privacy comporta l'abolizione del segreto della corrispondenza, che garantisce la riservatezza delle comunicazioni online a partire dal 21 dicembre 2020, data di entrata in vigore del Codice europeo delle comunicazioni elettroniche (nonché dal 1948 nella prima parte della nostra Costituzione Italiana). > > Con la presente desidero condividere con voi la mia massima preoccupazione per l'adozione di questa proposta di regolamento. L'uso completamente automatizzato della cosiddetta "intelligenza artificiale" per setacciamenti a tappeto e in tempo reale delle comunicazioni private rappresenta una massiccia violazione dei diritti umani fondamentali. Di conseguenza, tutti i cittadini sono potenzialmente sospettati di diffondere immagini e testi illegali senza alcun motivo. Tuttavia, secondo la giurisprudenza della Corte di giustizia europea, una perquisizione automatizzata permanente e generalizzata di comunicazioni private viola i diritti fondamentali ed è quindi vietata (causa C-511/18, par. 192). > > Allo stesso tempo, le perquisizioni automatizzate delle comunicazioni private possono avere effetti dannosi su coloro che dovrebbero essere protetti dal regolamento. Le vittime di violenza sessuale hanno ripetutamente sottolineato la grande importanza dei canali di comunicazione riservati. Tuttavia, l'introduzione di un monitoraggio automatico in tempo reale priverebbe le vittime di abusi proprio di questi spazi sicuri per lo scambio e la comunicazione confidenziale con avvocati e terapeuti. > > Infine, vorrei richiamare la vostra attenzione sui pericoli delle tecnologie di riconoscimento di immagini e testi. Secondo la Polizia federale svizzera, il 90% dei contenuti segnalati dagli algoritmi non è di natura criminale e mostra, ad esempio, foto di vacanze scattate in spiaggia con bambini che giocano. Tuttavia, anche un'indagine penale ingiustificata può distruggere famiglie e vite. Inoltre, i giovani saranno criminalizzati in modo sproporzionato dall'introduzione dei controlli sulle chat. Secondo le statistiche tedesche sulla criminalità, il 40% di tutte le indagini per possesso di materiale pedopornografico ha come obiettivo i minori. > > Vi chiedo quindi di difendere i nostri diritti civili fondamentali e di votare contro l'adozione della deroga alla direttiva sulla privacy elettronica. > > Cordiali saluti > > > > > Inviato con l'email sicura Proton Mail. > > martedì 18 giugno 2024 16:42, Andrea Barontini via nexa <nexa(a)server-nexa.polito.it> ha scritto: > >> A proposito di questo thread, segnalo che domani 19 giugno ci sara' la >> votazione per ChatControl. >> >> Mi permetto di segnalare (perche' e' l'unica pagina che ho trovato in >> Italiano): >> https://pirati.io/2024/06/il-blitz-del-consiglio-europeo-per-rendere-obblig… >> >> Da uno dei link si puo' arrivare ai contatti della rappresentanza >> permanente dell'Italia, qualora si ritenga di voler esprimere un >> auspicio qualificato: >> https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/… >> >> Saluti >> >> Il 07/06/24 15:58, Giacomo Tesio ha scritto: >> >>> Segnalo, qualora non sia ancora passato in lista: >>> >>> https://pirati.io/2024/06/possibile-accordo-di-maggioranza-per-chatcontrol-… >>> >>> Dopotutto, la controversa regolamentazione indiscriminata sugli abusi >>> sessuali sui minori (il cosiddetto chatcontrol) potrebbe ancora essere >>> approvata dai governi dell’UE, poiché la Francia potrebbe rinunciare al >>> suo precedente veto. Lo riporta Euractiv e lo confermano documenti >>> interni . La Francia considera in linea di principio la nuova proposta >>> di “moderazione degli upload” come un’opzione praticabile. >>> >>> Secondo l’ultima proposta di regolamento del 28 maggio ( documento del >>> Consiglio 9093/24 ), presentata come “moderazione degli upload”, si >>> dovrebbe chiedere agli utenti di app e servizi con funzioni di chat se >>> accettano la scansione indiscriminata e soggetta a errori ed >>> eventualmente segnalazione delle immagini, foto e video condivisi >>> privatamente. Anche immagini e video precedentemente sconosciuti >>> dovranno essere esaminati utilizzando la tecnologia dell’“intelligenza >>> artificiale”. Se un utente rifiuta la scansione, gli verrà impedito di >>> inviare o ricevere immagini, foto, video e collegamenti (articolo 10). >>> I servizi crittografati end-to-end come Whatsapp o Signal dovrebbero >>> implementare le ricerche automatizzate “prima della trasmissione” di un >>> messaggio (la cosiddetta scansione lato client, articolo 10a). La >>> scansione inizialmente proposta dei messaggi di testo per indicazioni >>> di adescamento, che finora non viene quasi utilizzata, sarà eliminata, >>> così come la scansione della comunicazione vocale, che non è mai stata >>> eseguita prima. Probabilmente come concessione alla Francia, anche le >>> chat dei dipendenti delle autorità di sicurezza e dei militari saranno >>> esentate da chatcontrol. >>> >>> Anche su: >>> https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-possible-users-w… >>> >>> Giacomo

June 18, 2024

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