China’s new ‘social credit system’ is a dystopian nightmare
https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-... Imagine calling a friend. Only instead of hearing a ring tone you hear a police siren, and then a voice intoning, “Be careful in your dealings with this person.” [...] Say you arrive at the Beijing airport, intending to catch a flight to Canton 1,200 miles south. The clerk at the ticket counter turns you away because — you guessed it — your social credit score is too low. [...] you are then forced to travel by slow train. What should have been a three-hour flight becomes a 30-hour, stop-and-go nightmare. All because the government has declared you untrustworthy. Perhaps you defaulted on a loan, made the mistake of criticizing some government policy online or just spent too much time playing video games on the internet. All of these actions, and many more, can cause your score to plummet, forcing citizens onto the most dreaded rung on China’s deadbeat caste system, the laolai. [...] The government algorithm will go as far as to install an “embarrassing” ring tone on the phones of laolai, shaming them every time they get a call in public. “Tapping on a person marked on the map reveals their personal information, including their full name, court-case number and the reason they have been labeled untrustworthy. Identity-card numbers and home addresses are also partially shown,” ABC reported. [...] The government claims that its purpose is to enhance trust and social stability by creating a “culture of sincerity” that will “restore social trust.” [...] Individuals can earn points, for example, for reporting those who violate the new restrictions on religious practice, such as Christians who illegally meet to pray in private homes, or the Muslim Uyghurs and Kazakhs in China’s far west whom they spot praying in public, fasting during Ramadan or just growing a beard. [...] Western criticism of the new system has been intense, with Human Rights Watch describing it as “chilling.” In response, Chinese Communist Party publications scoff that Westerners are simply too unsophisticated to understand the wonders of the new system. In the words of China’s Global Times, “The hypothetical theories of the West are based on their ignorance.” The massive social credit system, it goes on to say, is simply “beyond the understanding of Western countries.”
Ogni occasione per saperne di più sull’avanguardia cinese è buona, ma in questo caso io ho dubbi sull’affidabilità dell’autore. Fonti di seconda mano, e una affiliazione certo non neutrale:
Steven W. Mosher is the president of the Population Research Institute <https://www.pop.org/>
Anche: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Research_Institute Naturalmente, solo perché io non sono d’accordo con le tesi di questo istituto non vuol dire che quel che scrive il suo presidente sul sistema di credito sociale cinese sia prevenuto; sembra però che l’istituto consideri la Cina un suo nemico politico (per le questioni di controllo riproduttivo), e ne terrei conto facendo la tara sull’articolo. Dubito che solo (cito) le «like-minded socialist dictatorships» guardino agli esperimenti in Cina con curiosità. Enrico On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 09:11, Giacomo Tesio <giacomo@tesio.it> wrote:
https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-...
Imagine calling a friend. Only instead of hearing a ring tone you hear a police siren, and then a voice intoning, “Be careful in your dealings with this person.” [...]
Say you arrive at the Beijing airport, intending to catch a flight to Canton 1,200 miles south. The clerk at the ticket counter turns you away because — you guessed it — your social credit score is too low.
[...] you are then forced to travel by slow train. What should have been a three-hour flight becomes a 30-hour, stop-and-go nightmare.
All because the government has declared you untrustworthy. Perhaps you defaulted on a loan, made the mistake of criticizing some government policy online or just spent too much time playing video games on the internet. All of these actions, and many more, can cause your score to plummet, forcing citizens onto the most dreaded rung on China’s deadbeat caste system, the laolai.
[...] The government algorithm will go as far as to install an “embarrassing” ring tone on the phones of laolai, shaming them every time they get a call in public.
“Tapping on a person marked on the map reveals their personal information, including their full name, court-case number and the reason they have been labeled untrustworthy. Identity-card numbers and home addresses are also partially shown,” ABC reported. [...]
The government claims that its purpose is to enhance trust and social stability by creating a “culture of sincerity” that will “restore social trust.” [...]
Individuals can earn points, for example, for reporting those who violate the new restrictions on religious practice, such as Christians who illegally meet to pray in private homes, or the Muslim Uyghurs and Kazakhs in China’s far west whom they spot praying in public, fasting during Ramadan or just growing a beard. [...]
Western criticism of the new system has been intense, with Human Rights Watch describing it as “chilling.”
In response, Chinese Communist Party publications scoff that Westerners are simply too unsophisticated to understand the wonders of the new system.
In the words of China’s Global Times, “The hypothetical theories of the West are based on their ignorance.” The massive social credit system, it goes on to say, is simply “beyond the understanding of Western countries.” _______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
Colgo l'occasione per ricordare che a breve ne parleremo a Torino: https://e-privacy.winstonsmith.org/ e-privacy XXV — Nuove tecnologie di controllo<https://e-privacy.winstonsmith.org/> e-privacy 2019 - summer edition. Il 6 e 7 giugno 2019 (GIOVEDÌ e venerdì) a Torino, nella Sala conferenze "Luigi Ciminiera" - Sede Centrale - Cittadella Politecnica. si svolgerà e-privacy 2019 summer edition.. Il tema guida della XXV edizione di e-privacy è: Nuove tecnologie di controllo "Come il nascente sistema di social scoring vada oltre ogni pensabile profilazione." e-privacy.winstonsmith.org Saluti a tutti D. ________________________________ From: nexa <nexa-bounces@server-nexa.polito.it> on behalf of Enrico Poli <polienrico@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 7:51 AM To: Nexa Subject: Re: [nexa] China’s new ‘social credit system’ is a dystopian nightmare Ogni occasione per saperne di più sull’avanguardia cinese è buona, ma in questo caso io ho dubbi sull’affidabilità dell’autore. Fonti di seconda mano, e una affiliazione certo non neutrale:
Steven W. Mosher is the president of the Population Research Institute<https://www.pop.org/>
Anche: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Research_Institute Naturalmente, solo perché io non sono d’accordo con le tesi di questo istituto non vuol dire che quel che scrive il suo presidente sul sistema di credito sociale cinese sia prevenuto; sembra però che l’istituto consideri la Cina un suo nemico politico (per le questioni di controllo riproduttivo), e ne terrei conto facendo la tara sull’articolo. Dubito che solo (cito) le «like-minded socialist dictatorships» guardino agli esperimenti in Cina con curiosità. Enrico On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 09:11, Giacomo Tesio <giacomo@tesio.it<mailto:giacomo@tesio.it>> wrote: https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-... Imagine calling a friend. Only instead of hearing a ring tone you hear a police siren, and then a voice intoning, “Be careful in your dealings with this person.” [...] Say you arrive at the Beijing airport, intending to catch a flight to Canton 1,200 miles south. The clerk at the ticket counter turns you away because — you guessed it — your social credit score is too low. [...] you are then forced to travel by slow train. What should have been a three-hour flight becomes a 30-hour, stop-and-go nightmare. All because the government has declared you untrustworthy. Perhaps you defaulted on a loan, made the mistake of criticizing some government policy online or just spent too much time playing video games on the internet. All of these actions, and many more, can cause your score to plummet, forcing citizens onto the most dreaded rung on China’s deadbeat caste system, the laolai. [...] The government algorithm will go as far as to install an “embarrassing” ring tone on the phones of laolai, shaming them every time they get a call in public. “Tapping on a person marked on the map reveals their personal information, including their full name, court-case number and the reason they have been labeled untrustworthy. Identity-card numbers and home addresses are also partially shown,” ABC reported. [...] The government claims that its purpose is to enhance trust and social stability by creating a “culture of sincerity” that will “restore social trust.” [...] Individuals can earn points, for example, for reporting those who violate the new restrictions on religious practice, such as Christians who illegally meet to pray in private homes, or the Muslim Uyghurs and Kazakhs in China’s far west whom they spot praying in public, fasting during Ramadan or just growing a beard. [...] Western criticism of the new system has been intense, with Human Rights Watch describing it as “chilling.” In response, Chinese Communist Party publications scoff that Westerners are simply too unsophisticated to understand the wonders of the new system. In the words of China’s Global Times, “The hypothetical theories of the West are based on their ignorance.” The massive social credit system, it goes on to say, is simply “beyond the understanding of Western countries.” _______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it<mailto:nexa@server-nexa.polito.it> https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
Grazie, il titolo "dystopian nightmare" si adatta altrettanto bene al modello di sorveglianza americano. "A low social credit score will exclude you from well-paid jobs, make it impossible for you to get a house or a car loan or even book a hotel room." è quanto succede anche in US. Analisi come queste condannano non la sorveglianza, ma l'impiego della sorveglianza da parte dello Stato comunista. Il confronto dovrebbe contemplare l'alternativa *non* basata sulla sorveglianza, altrimenti implicitamente accettiamo la sorveglianza come inevitabile. Alberto On 21/05/2019 09:51, Enrico Poli wrote:
Ogni occasione per saperne di più sull’avanguardia cinese è buona, ma in questo caso io ho dubbi sull’affidabilità dell’autore. Fonti di seconda mano, e una affiliazione certo non neutrale:
Steven W. Mosher is the president of the Population Research Institute <https://www.pop.org/>
Anche: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Research_Institute
Naturalmente, solo perché io non sono d’accordo con le tesi di questo istituto non vuol dire che quel che scrive il suo presidente sul sistema di credito sociale cinese sia prevenuto; sembra però che l’istituto consideri la Cina un suo nemico politico (per le questioni di controllo riproduttivo), e ne terrei conto facendo la tara sull’articolo. Dubito che solo (cito) le «like-minded socialist dictatorships» guardino agli esperimenti in Cina con curiosità.
Enrico
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 09:11, Giacomo Tesio <giacomo@tesio.it <mailto:giacomo@tesio.it>> wrote:
https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-...
Imagine calling a friend. Only instead of hearing a ring tone you hear a police siren, and then a voice intoning, “Be careful in your dealings with this person.” [...]
Say you arrive at the Beijing airport, intending to catch a flight to Canton 1,200 miles south. The clerk at the ticket counter turns you away because — you guessed it — your social credit score is too low.
[...] you are then forced to travel by slow train. What should have been a three-hour flight becomes a 30-hour, stop-and-go nightmare.
All because the government has declared you untrustworthy. Perhaps you defaulted on a loan, made the mistake of criticizing some government policy online or just spent too much time playing video games on the internet. All of these actions, and many more, can cause your score to plummet, forcing citizens onto the most dreaded rung on China’s deadbeat caste system, the laolai.
[...] The government algorithm will go as far as to install an “embarrassing” ring tone on the phones of laolai, shaming them every time they get a call in public.
“Tapping on a person marked on the map reveals their personal information, including their full name, court-case number and the reason they have been labeled untrustworthy. Identity-card numbers and home addresses are also partially shown,” ABC reported. [...]
The government claims that its purpose is to enhance trust and social stability by creating a “culture of sincerity” that will “restore social trust.” [...]
Individuals can earn points, for example, for reporting those who violate the new restrictions on religious practice, such as Christians who illegally meet to pray in private homes, or the Muslim Uyghurs and Kazakhs in China’s far west whom they spot praying in public, fasting during Ramadan or just growing a beard. [...]
Western criticism of the new system has been intense, with Human Rights Watch describing it as “chilling.”
In response, Chinese Communist Party publications scoff that Westerners are simply too unsophisticated to understand the wonders of the new system.
In the words of China’s Global Times, “The hypothetical theories of the West are based on their ignorance.” The massive social credit system, it goes on to say, is simply “beyond the understanding of Western countries.” _______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it <mailto:nexa@server-nexa.polito.it> https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
_______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
Nella puntata del 22 novembre 2018 del podcast Sinology viene fatta un'analisi dei diversi sistemi pubblico e privato di sorveglianza cinesi. https://supchina.com/podcast/mythbusting-chinas-social-credit-system/ Presenta un quadro molto articolato di controlli e incentivi, inserito nelle particolari esigenze della società cinese. Per chi fosse interessato ad un approfondimento che va oltre al trattamento superficiale che viene dato nella maggior parte dei casi in occidente, questo è un punto di partenza ottimo. Uno degli ospiti traduce direttamente dal cinese le leggi e i regolamenti riguardanti il social credit system, per esempio, lavorando quindi con le fonti originali. On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:55 AM Alberto Cammozzo <ac+nexa@zeromx.net> wrote:
Grazie, il titolo "dystopian nightmare" si adatta altrettanto bene al modello di sorveglianza americano. "A low social credit score will exclude you from well-paid jobs, make it impossible for you to get a house or a car loan or even book a hotel room." è quanto succede anche in US. Analisi come queste condannano non la sorveglianza, ma l'impiego della sorveglianza da parte dello Stato comunista. Il confronto dovrebbe contemplare l'alternativa *non* basata sulla sorveglianza, altrimenti implicitamente accettiamo la sorveglianza come inevitabile.
Alberto
On 21/05/2019 09:51, Enrico Poli wrote:
Ogni occasione per saperne di più sull’avanguardia cinese è buona, ma in questo caso io ho dubbi sull’affidabilità dell’autore. Fonti di seconda mano, e una affiliazione certo non neutrale:
Steven W. Mosher is the president of the Population Research Institute <https://www.pop.org/>
Anche: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Research_Institute
Naturalmente, solo perché io non sono d’accordo con le tesi di questo istituto non vuol dire che quel che scrive il suo presidente sul sistema di credito sociale cinese sia prevenuto; sembra però che l’istituto consideri la Cina un suo nemico politico (per le questioni di controllo riproduttivo), e ne terrei conto facendo la tara sull’articolo. Dubito che solo (cito) le «like-minded socialist dictatorships» guardino agli esperimenti in Cina con curiosità.
Enrico
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 09:11, Giacomo Tesio <giacomo@tesio.it <mailto:giacomo@tesio.it>> wrote:
https://nypost.com/2019/05/18/chinas-new-social-credit-system-turns-orwells-...
Imagine calling a friend. Only instead of hearing a ring tone you
hear
a police siren, and then a voice intoning, “Be careful in your dealings with this person.” [...]
Say you arrive at the Beijing airport, intending to catch a flight to Canton 1,200 miles south. The clerk at the ticket counter turns you away because — you guessed it — your social credit score is too low.
[...] you are then forced to travel by slow train. What should have been a three-hour flight becomes a 30-hour, stop-and-go nightmare.
All because the government has declared you untrustworthy. Perhaps
you
defaulted on a loan, made the mistake of criticizing some government policy online or just spent too much time playing video games on the internet. All of these actions, and many more, can cause your score
to
plummet, forcing citizens onto the most dreaded rung on China’s deadbeat caste system, the laolai.
[...] The government algorithm will go as far as to install an “embarrassing” ring tone on the phones of laolai, shaming them every time they get a call in public.
“Tapping on a person marked on the map reveals their personal information, including their full name, court-case number and the reason they have been labeled untrustworthy. Identity-card numbers
and
home addresses are also partially shown,” ABC reported. [...]
The government claims that its purpose is to enhance trust and social stability by creating a “culture of sincerity” that will “restore social trust.” [...]
Individuals can earn points, for example, for reporting those who violate the new restrictions on religious practice, such as
Christians
who illegally meet to pray in private homes, or the Muslim Uyghurs
and
Kazakhs in China’s far west whom they spot praying in public, fasting during Ramadan or just growing a beard. [...]
Western criticism of the new system has been intense, with Human Rights Watch describing it as “chilling.”
In response, Chinese Communist Party publications scoff that Westerners are simply too unsophisticated to understand the wonders
of
the new system.
In the words of China’s Global Times, “The hypothetical theories of the West are based on their ignorance.” The massive social credit system, it goes on to say, is simply “beyond the understanding of Western countries.” _______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it <mailto:nexa@server-nexa.polito.it> https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
_______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
_______________________________________________ nexa mailing list nexa@server-nexa.polito.it https://server-nexa.polito.it/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nexa
-- David Orban "What is the question that I should be asking?" twitter, linkedin, etc: davidorban http://davidorban.com
On 21/05/2019, Enrico Poli <polienrico@gmail.com> wrote:
Ogni occasione per saperne di più sull’avanguardia cinese è buona, ma in questo caso io ho dubbi sull’affidabilità dell’autore. Fonti di seconda mano, e una affiliazione certo non neutrale:
Ero consapevole di questa possibile (e legittima) obbiezione e ho cercato di epurare le citazioni che ho riportato dei pareri personali dell'autore (comunque disponibili sull'articolo che ho linkato, non era mia intenzione censurarlo, solo limitare le citazioni alle affermazioni verificabili). Personalmente sono sia preoccupato che curioso rispetto al Credit System cinese. L'idea che possa funzionare a favore della popolazione cinese può essere fondata solo su una assoluta fiducia nella elevatissima statura morale ed ideale della burocrazia di partito. Dalla mia prospettiva occidentale, questa assunzione appare evidentemente fallace. Ma sono consapevole della profonda occidentalità della mia prospettiva. E quel poco che ho viaggiato (non in Cina, ahimè) mi ha insegnato che popolazioni lontane possono avere prospettive profondamente diverse ma tutte equamente legittime. Vi sono poi altri fattori di preoccupazione geopolitica. Noi non abbiamo la storia del popolo cinese, ma non è affatto scontato che non ci si ritrovi presto sotto un giogo analogo (che per noi sarebbe effettivamente un giogo). Per contro, mi chiedo, quali sono gli effetti selettivi di una pressione evolutiva di questo genere? A parità di altri fattori, il Capitalismo favorisce gli organismi egoisti e manipolatori. Che tipo di uomo sta selezionando invece la Cina? E' forse un uomo effettivamente migliore di noi? O è un uomo docile e mite che i nostri discendenti finiranno per dominare? E tale pressione evolutiva si applica anche al Partito? O forse nel Partito Comunista Cinese si applica una selezione opposta, che seleziona organismi analoghi a quelli selezionati dal Capitalismo? Insomma... non so. Sono probabilmente domande legate alla mia ignoranza in materia. Ma sono domande cui non trovo risposte convincenti. Giacomo
participants (5)
-
Alberto Cammozzo -
David Orban -
Diego Giorio -
Enrico Poli -
Giacomo Tesio